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No, the time when the middle class had it best was when we were the world's manufacturing king. We knew how to create new wealth, and it takes new wealth to grow and thrive. The factories were humming and the people were working, using the value-added concept of creating new wealth.

Now free trade, onerous regulations, and taxes have driven much of that away and those were the taxpayers. The companies paid taxes and the payroll taxes rolled in.

It's gone, all of those great manufacturing centers are in ruins, it's not coming back, and we're going to crash.

+1

That was a time of real wealth creation, not phony wealth based upon insane debt levels. We have the ability, and resources, to do it again once the dust settles. I hope we make it happen, but there are absolutely no guarantees that is the path we will choose. West Germany and Japan succeeded in turning their countries around after being decimated in WWII, but other countries descended into Hades (eastern bloc). Different circumstances of course (no choice for some), but we do have a choice. Our own history gives us enough examples to know what works and what doesn't. I don't know if we as a country are smart enough to make the right choice though. We will find out soon; Midnight is fast approaching.
 
Well here's a few of my solutions:
Free trade - only with countries that have similar labor and environmental standards. If a country is a gross polluter and/or employs child, slave labor etc. then we add a tariff to the import of their goods. Why the **** are we playing by their rules... we should be making them play by ours.

What regulations are necessary get streamlined and we make them broader in scope, more difficult to change and less subject to micromanagement. For example CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) regs are unnecessary micromanaging. Solution = raise the gas tax instead, we accomplish the same goal, allow people to choose what they want to drive, increase road funding, and we stop subsidizing a pattern of behavior that is not sustainable in the long run. Yeah I don't want to pay more at the pump either but its high time we own up to the true costs of our lifestyle and stop acting like a bunch of spoiled babies.

Revamp the tax code and make it harder to continually tinker with. Get rid of most deductions and loopholes. Lower the corporate tax rate but make sure no one gets special deals. Raise the individual top marginal rate substantially. This will encourage corporations to make money here but discourage the looting of corporate profits by top executives. It also de-incentivises large concentrations of stagnant wealth which don't circulate back to the demand side of the economy.

Re-regulate the banks and Wall St. The financial system is supposed to be about connecting capital with productive uses, it should not be a casino.

Get tough on businesses that profit from illegal immigration: The arguments for illegal labor are the same ones made for slavery back in the 1800's.

Cut back on America's global military presence. It is not our job to be the worlds police force and we can't afford it.

Stop playing games with social programs. We can only have the programs we are willing to pay for with our current tax dollars. These programs need to be efficient. No more borrowing funds from these, no more "tax holidays" i.e. refusing to pay for them.

Institute a basic national healthcare system. Why should American business get shouldered with this responsibility? Everyone needs healthcare and everyone should pay. How about funding it with a national sales tax - that way the burden is most evenly spread. And no I'm not talking about paying for sex-changes and radical surgeries... just a basic level of care based upon what we are willing to pay for. Want more? Great, you can buy extra private medical coverage, pay out of pocket or whatever.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head. I don't expect you to like all of them but I think everyone can agree that what we are doing now is not working. If you want to poke holes in my ideas have at it.... but you better have an alternative suggestion and a rational for it. Labeling, name calling etc. is wholly unproductive and is not a valid form of argument.

One of the main differences between you and me is that you want more government and more taxes, and I want less of both.

I want constitutional freedom the way our founders intended.

I'll paraphrase for this purpose what someone else once said. "If you take my money with a gun to pay for your health care you are committing a crime which will put you in prison. But, if the government does it for you, they are considered good."

Our founders promised us equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. The right to the "pursuit of happiness" does not mean the right to be happy. How your life turns out is your responsibility. Free men can be free only if they take responsibility for themselves.
 
I'll say again, Bretton Woods 2 was when we started to become a consumer nation. Before that we produced 96% of everything sold in this country. Blame it on the free market capitalist system if you will, but the fact is that your precious government which you want more of is the reason we are where we are now.
 
One of the main differences between you and me is that you want more government and more taxes, and I want less of both.

I want constitutional freedom the way our founders intended.

I'll paraphrase for this purpose what someone else once said. "If you take my money with a gun to pay for your health care you are committing a crime which will put you in prison. But, if the government does it for you, they are considered good."

Our founders promised us equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. The right to the "pursuit of happiness" does not mean the right to be happy. How your life turns out is your responsibility. Free men can be free only if they take responsibility for themselves.

"If you take my money with a gun to pay for your police protection you are committing a crime which will put you in prison. But, if the government does it for you, they are considered good." - Do you see what I did there, how is paying for police protection as a group different from paying for health care as a group? Can you imagine if we all had to hire our own private security? Not very efficient is it. Try looking at government from a business perspective, we need to look at what makes sense to do as a group and what makes sense to do individually.
 
Much more likely to be similar to what happened in Argentina years ago. Things just keep getting worse and worse, crime goes up, etc. But in our country of prescription drug addicts and welfare families it will likely be much worse.
 
+1

That was a time of real wealth creation, not phony wealth based upon insane debt levels. We have the ability, and resources, to do it again once the dust settles. I hope we make it happen, but there are absolutely no guarantees that is the path we will choose. West Germany and Japan succeeded in turning their countries around after being decimated in WWII, but other countries descended into Hades (eastern bloc). Different circumstances of course (no choice for some), but we do have a choice. Our own history gives us enough examples to know what works and what doesn't. I don't know if we as a country are smart enough to make the right choice though. We will find out soon; Midnight is fast approaching.

It won't get fixed. People have begun to look to the government for their welfare, and it's breaking us. Almost 1/2 of all Americans get a check from the government every month not to mention food stamps and medicaid.

People will vote their pocketbooks.

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." - Benjamin Franklin

"I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government."

"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."

-All Thomas Jefferson

"Democracy will fail when the masses discover they can vote the treasury." - Author unknown
 
"If you take my money with a gun to pay for your police protection you are committing a crime which will put you in prison. But, if the government does it for you, they are considered good." - Do you see what I did there, how is paying for police protection as a group different from paying for health care as a group? Can you imagine if we all had to hire our own private security? Not very efficient is it. Try looking at government from a business perspective, we need to look at what makes sense to do as a group and what makes sense to do individually.

"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."

- Thomas Jefferson
 
Well here's a few of my solutions:
Free trade - only with countries that have similar labor and environmental standards. If a country is a gross polluter and/or employs child, slave labor etc. then we add a tariff to the import of their goods. Why the **** are we playing by their rules... we should be making them play by ours.

What regulations are necessary get streamlined and we make them broader in scope, more difficult to change and less subject to micromanagement. For example CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) regs are unnecessary micromanaging. Solution = raise the gas tax instead, we accomplish the same goal, allow people to choose what they want to drive, increase road funding, and we stop subsidizing a pattern of behavior that is not sustainable in the long run. Yeah I don't want to pay more at the pump either but its high time we own up to the true costs of our lifestyle and stop acting like a bunch of spoiled babies.

Revamp the tax code and make it harder to continually tinker with. Get rid of most deductions and loopholes. Lower the corporate tax rate but make sure no one gets special deals. Raise the individual top marginal rate substantially. This will encourage corporations to make money here but discourage the looting of corporate profits by top executives. It also de-incentivises large concentrations of stagnant wealth which don't circulate back to the demand side of the economy.

Re-regulate the banks and Wall St. The financial system is supposed to be about connecting capital with productive uses, it should not be a casino.

Get tough on businesses that profit from illegal immigration: The arguments for illegal labor are the same ones made for slavery back in the 1800's.

Cut back on America's global military presence. It is not our job to be the worlds police force and we can't afford it.

Stop playing games with social programs. We can only have the programs we are willing to pay for with our current tax dollars. These programs need to be efficient. No more borrowing funds from these, no more "tax holidays" i.e. refusing to pay for them.

Institute a basic national healthcare system. Why should American business get shouldered with this responsibility? Everyone needs healthcare and everyone should pay. How about funding it with a national sales tax - that way the burden is most evenly spread. And no I'm not talking about paying for sex-changes and radical surgeries... just a basic level of care based upon what we are willing to pay for. Want more? Great, you can buy extra private medical coverage, pay out of pocket or whatever.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head. I don't expect you to like all of them but I think everyone can agree that what we are doing now is not working. If you want to poke holes in my ideas have at it.... but you better have an alternative suggestion and a rational for it. Labeling, name calling etc. is wholly unproductive and is not a valid form of argument.

Sigh, I could agreee or work with your first few points but...

You want a national sales/vat tax on top of everything else? So thats a consumption tax, an income tax, a property tax (you don't own land in this country) on top of all the other fees and hidden forms of the main 3 tax routes.

National healthcare? Why indeed should it be businesses shouldering healthcare (thanks FDR and bad policy from the first depression) or indeed the national government (aka taxpayers). You think the special interests on any side of the political divide won't abuse your new barebones system real quick? What is bare bones? No sex changes but what about viagra or abortions? Birth control or vasectomies? Its a never ending question because there are MILLIONS of combinations and desires by millions of different people. You can't nationalize healthcare without becoming as bad or worse than current insurance companies and onerous gov regulations. You are a slave to the government in all but name when they control your healthcare.

Given current attitudes it would take another 80 years to disabuse the American people on entitlements, about as long as we've been taught to demand them. There is a video floating around of a woman demanding that someone take care of her 15 children... her kids come first over yours, and the government puts a gun to your head to pay for her entitlement. We have to go cold turkey at this point, mostly because we just can't afford it anymore, we've wasted it all.
 
There is a video floating around of a woman demanding that someone take care of her 15 children... her kids come first over yours, and the government puts a gun to your head to pay for her entitlement.

Here's that vid. 77% of all black children have unwed mothers. In 1965 it was 24% Thanks, President Johnson for your Great Society.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bavou_SEj1E
 
"If you take my money with a gun to pay for your police protection you are committing a crime which will put you in prison. But, if the government does it for you, they are considered good." - Do you see what I did there, how is paying for police protection as a group different from paying for health care as a group? Can you imagine if we all had to hire our own private security? Not very efficient is it. Try looking at government from a business perspective, we need to look at what makes sense to do as a group and what makes sense to do individually.


Half of what you say seems to make sense and be truth, and the other half is ignorance at best and pure deception at worst. I think you are on the path to understanding individual liberty and responsibility, but your not quite there. Why are you even in a survival blog thread if you trust your government so much? They will take care of you when you need it, don't fret.
 
There is no miracle cure, everything in life is a trade-off of some sort.
I see a lot of people here preaching "kill government" as the answer to everything... I think you folks need a reality check. Take a look around the world and try to find examples of this theory working. Pretty much anyplace we find weak or fragmented government we find rampant poverty, crime, suffering, war etc. I just don't think the idealistic approach you guys are pushing is realistic. I think a better solution is to take back our government and make it work for us - make it a truly representative government.
 
"If you take my money with a gun to pay for your police protection you are committing a crime which will put you in prison. But, if the government does it for you, they are considered good." - Do you see what I did there, how is paying for police protection as a group different from paying for health care as a group? Can you imagine if we all had to hire our own private security? Not very efficient is it. Try looking at government from a business perspective, we need to look at what makes sense to do as a group and what makes sense to do individually.

I find it amusing you would write this on a forum about firearms. Police protection that has required us to have to register ourselves to carry concealed firearms, and seek permission to buy them (in gross violation of the 2nd ammendment). A police force that is not legally required to defend us unless they have a "prior relationship" (restraining order/protection order) with the citizen requesting defense. A federal police force that is giving or selling guns to drug lords. Drug lords that sell products that the fed police then arrest people for purchasing. A federal police force that goes after doctors if they are supposedly prescribing too much pain meds. God help you if you have a presribed pain med thats over the allowed 1 month supply limit... Police forces that in search of those drugs now just stops motorists on "drug corridors" and seizes any cash they have, just assuming it is illegal drug proceeds. Police forces that can video tape you but you can't tape them, in blatant violation of the 1st ammendment.
 
"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."

- Thomas Jefferson

No offense here gunner but you are trying to teach common sense to the senseless which in my opinion is a huge waste of time. It's your time to waste though:s0112:


There have allways been people who for some reason think strangers owe them something because the stranger has more than they do. They are willing to take it from the stranger or have the government do it in the name of justice because it just isn't right that someone has more than they do. It isn't fair that they have to work for what they want so it's more fair to make others pay for it.

Of course there are all kinds of reason they were never able to be rich but that is why life isn't fair and somebody must pay. Whoever has more must pay to them is the only fair way. I wonder how this thinking came about but it's obviouse there was too much time on someones hands. That time will cease as the crash hits and no longer will they ride on the backs of others.

jj
 
There is no miracle cure, everything in life is a trade-off of some sort.
I see a lot of people here preaching "kill government" as the answer to everything... I think you folks need a reality check. Take a look around the world and try to find examples of this theory working. Pretty much anyplace we find weak or fragmented government we find rampant poverty, crime, suffering, war etc. I just don't think the idealistic approach you guys are pushing is realistic. I think a better solution is to take back our government and make it work for us - make it a truly representative government.

Ok now I'm leaning toward deception...
When has ANY ONE here advocated zero government???
Our "idealistic" approach sure worked for over 200 years and counting!
Now instead of providing a rebuttal to our points your putting words in our mouth.
 
Hmmm, you know what wp4, you made a great point earlier... why am I wasting my time on a survivalist forum trying to talk common sense to a bunch of extremists. I think I'll find something more productive to do with my time.
 
Hmmm, you know what wp4, you made a great point earlier... why am I wasting my time on a survivalist forum trying to talk common sense to a bunch of extremists. I think I'll find something more productive to do with my time.

And he exits complete with unsubstantiated claims of "extremism"
My question to you earlier that you have ignored and twisted to make another point was an honest one - I was not making a point by asking it.

I say good riddance, go spread your half truths that you have fully believed somewhere else.
 
I find it amusing you would write this on a forum about firearms. Police protection that has required us to have to register ourselves to carry concealed firearms, and seek permission to buy them (in gross violation of the 2nd ammendment). A police force that is not legally required to defend us unless they have a "prior relationship" (restraining order/protection order) with the citizen requesting defense. A federal police force that is giving or selling guns to drug lords. Drug lords that sell products that the fed police then arrest people for purchasing. A federal police force that goes after doctors if they are supposedly prescribing too much pain meds. God help you if you have a presribed pain med thats over the allowed 1 month supply limit... Police forces that in search of those drugs now just stops motorists on "drug corridors" and seizes any cash they have, just assuming it is illegal drug proceeds. Police forces that can video tape you but you can't tape them, in blatant violation of the 1st ammendment.

Can you explain that one? I was pulled over in Nevada a couple of months back and was asked if I had a large sum of cash on me.
 

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