New Taurus Judge Home Defender - WTF??? 🤔

[Member 66129]

Many years ago, I fired one of these for the first and only time standing on the trap box at a local gun club. They were actually quite a bit of fun to use in an effort to shoot aerial targets. Other than snake annihilation, I can't think of much else it would be my go-to for.

 

[lucusloc]

I have a 3in judge and I wouldn't want to be in front of it, I would trust
it with double ought buck..

View attachment 1488979 View attachment 1488981

There is a difference between dangerous and adequate. My .17 cal pellet gun is dangerous, it can kill you under the right circumstances. I still treat it exactly like I treat my 12 gauge or my 308 for that reason. But there is no way in hell I would trust it in a self defense situation. It simple does not posses the characteristics that make for a reliable stop. There simply is no comparison between it and something adequate.

You can argue that somethin like the Judge, or even a .22lr mouse gun, will be adequate in the vast majority of situations. Most bad guys do not need to be physically incapacitated to decide to stop, and just receiving a shot - even a non-incapacitating and superficial one - will end the threat. But by that logic we can say that well over 90% of defensive gun uses end with no shots fired at all, so any "gun" is good enough. But that does not mean I am going to stuff a black water gun in my holster and call it adequate even if it would in theory work for over 90% of situations. Most of us would say that the risk that you would need something capable of delivering a reliable incapacitating stop are not worth the risk of not having it.

We have pretty decent metrics for what can deliver a reliable incapacitating stop. Sure they are not perfect metrics, but they are about as good as you can get considering you cannot just grab a test subject off the street when you want to test a new design. It is pretty well understood that an adequate firearm will need 12-14 inches of penetration in gel for it to effect reliable, involuntary stops on an aggressor unwilling to stop for anything. This distance in gel is understood to correlate well with a firearm's ability to reach down to vital systems and deliver enough energy there to impede their function, forcing even a very intent aggressor to simply shut down and stop.

The Judge has proven over and over again that it is incapable or achieving this metric with any .410 load. .410 simply does not have the oomph to get a payload that deep into gel on a reliable basis, even if the shell has been "designed" for defensive use. This means that by the objective standards that have been established so far, the Judges is not considered adequate for defensive use applications. You can argue that you would not stand in front of it all you want, but that is not an adequate metric for establishing a firearms effectiveness. The question is not whether or not a sane and rational person would want to stand in front of it or not, the question is if it can force a hopped up meth head intent on eating your face to stop doing that. I have my very well placed doubts about the Judge's ability to do that on a reliable and consistent basis.

 

[CountryGent]

 

[Dirty Cary]

There is a difference between dangerous and adequate. My .17 cal pellet gun is dangerous, it can kill you under the right circumstances. I still treat it exactly like I treat my 12 gauge or my 308 for that reason. But there is no way in hell I would trust it in a self defense situation. It simple does not posses the characteristics that make for a reliable stop. There simply is no comparison between it and something adequate.

You can argue that somethin like the Judge, or even a .22lr mouse gun, will be adequate in the vast majority of situations. Most bad guys do not need to be physically incapacitated to decide to stop, and just receiving a shot - even a non-incapacitating and superficial one - will end the threat. But by that logic we can say that well over 90% of defensive gun uses end with no shots fired at all, so any "gun" is good enough. But that does not mean I am going to stuff a black water gun in my holster and call it adequate even if it would in theory work for over 90% of situations. Most of us would say that the risk that you would need something capable of delivering a reliable incapacitating stop are not worth the risk of not having it.

We have pretty decent metrics for what can deliver a reliable incapacitating stop. Sure they are not perfect metrics, but they are about as good as you can get considering you cannot just grab a test subject off the street when you want to test a new design. It is pretty well understood that an adequate firearm will need 12-14 inches of penetration in gel for it to effect reliable, involuntary stops on an aggressor unwilling to stop for anything. This distance in gel is understood to correlate well with a firearm's ability to reach down to vital systems and deliver enough energy there to impede their function, forcing even a very intent aggressor to simply shut down and stop.

The Judge has proven over and over again that it is incapable or achieving this metric with any .410 load. .410 simply does not have the oomph to get a payload that deep into gel on a reliable basis, even if the shell has been "designed" for defensive use. This means that by the objective standards that have been established so far, the Judges is not considered adequate for defensive use applications. You can argue that you would not stand in front of it all you want, but that is not an adequate metric for establishing a firearms effectiveness. The question is not whether or not a sane and rational person would want to stand in front of it or not, the question is if it can force a hopped up meth head intent on eating your face to stop doing that. I have my very well placed doubts about the Judge's ability to do that on a reliable and consistent basis.

And how may time have you shot one? they make specific round for these guns now and I have ran most of them with decent results.
Is it my go to gun no but I would trust it with pdx or buck shot and 45lc. My go to at home is a p320 with 21 round mag.

 

[DunRanull]

Incredible. I can see where some guys might like this, but it's probably a bit pricey for most of them. Personally, I have a few pistols available to get me to a rifle or 12 gauge if needed. So far Ive never needed more than the pistol... It's just the Old Woman and myself here and no grands around so no worries.
Still it would be better than nothing in a pinch eh...

 

[DunRanull]

Is this like a cheap version of a Thompson contender?

It ain't what I'd call cheap... just sayin

 

[DunRanull]

Some do.. for a close quarter pistol. IE., Belly carry while driving... anti car jacking device that is likely not to penetrate other close quarter vehicles. Snake country, etc.

Still though... I prefer a bond arms over a judge for that.

This monstrosity though is just ridiculous and can't imagine what niche it would excel in. I have no doubt though some folks will be buying them just for the novelty factor. "Gotta own em all" folk(?)

Fair enuff. Still, PRICE would be a factor.

 

[lucusloc]

And how may time have you shot one? they make specific round for these guns now and I have ran most of them with decent results.
Is it my go to gun no but I would trust it with pdx or buck shot and 45lc. My go to at home is a p320 with 21 round mag.

View attachment 1489173

I own a Judge. They are fun range toys, but nothing more. I have seen multiple gel tests of the PDX shells, and the plain disk shells, and the buckshot shells. None of them can reliable reach 12-14 inches. Most top out in the 8-10 range, with the best getting to 10-12 reliably (eg. the "new" PDX stuff which is hotter and heavier than the original PDX stuff). Even Winchester's own marketing material shows the poor gel test performance (though they try to frame it as a positive; "look at how wide that damage spread is!" as if how wide the wound channel is matters if it does not reach vitals. . . )

Please note I am talking about reliable performance. I have seen some single shot tests of the PDX et. al. that get up to 14+ inches, but when compared to a string of shots those results seem to be the exception rather than the rule. I am not willing to trust my life to outliers.

You can of course trust whatever you want. Hell, the most popular self defense guns are .22lr models. I can see why people make the compromise, as a .22lr mouse gun is easy to carry wherever you want, and having some kind of gun is way better than having nothing. I would take a Judge over many other lesser options if I had to make that choice. And, as noted before, in better than 90% of defensive gun uses what you choose simply will not be relevant, as the bag guy is going to bubblegum themselves and run before you even get a shot off. If you are OK with those metrics you do you.

What I do have a problem with is the marketing behind it. It is not a "super effective" "pocket shotgun" like so much ad copy insinuates. It doe not take less skill to shoot effectively than any other platform, nor is the random and wide "spread" a commendable feature. The marketing of this product seems to be aimed squarely at much of the old myth and legend of firearms lore that has been debunked with more modern testing. I take umbrage with the continued spread of misinformation. I do not like that people are being convinced that something that is provable less than adequate is somehow better than more proven options.

As for me? I am going to put in the effort to carry something adequate. I want to be OK not just for the 90% of cases where no shot is fired, but also for the <1% of cases where I need multiple rounds of effective pews for the bad guy that just will not stop until stopped. For this I consider 9mm, with a properly engineered bullet, to be the absolute minimum baseline. And I want a platform that carries as many of them as I can get in the level of concealment I need. And if I can carry more than baseline I will. I have carry kit from little mouse 9mm for deep concealment all the way up to 10mm for semi-open trail carry. I like being as prepared as I can be.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

I found a more recent incident where the Judge was one shot lethal at point blank range

Armed homeowner justified in shooting, killing intruder

An Ionia County man was cleared in the fatal shooting of an intruder.

www.mlive.com

 

[DunRanull]

I found a more recent incident where the Judge was one shot lethal at point blank range

Armed homeowner justified in shooting, killing intruder

An Ionia County man was cleared in the fatal shooting of an intruder.

www.mlive.com

Bravo, Ionia! One of the favorite places of my early life and maternal family seat...

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Here is the older story about a first shot miss with a Taurus Judge

Make My Day Shooter: 'I Did The Right Thing'

A 17- year old who was shot and killed after breaking into a northeast Denver home last May was under the influence of alcohol, marijuana and opiates according to a CBS4 Investigation.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Dirty Cary]

I would not use it as a carry gun for sure, I carry one of these depending on season and where I'm going.

 

[JohnnyMac]

I'm guessing the majority of Judge owners (myself included) didn't buy it as their primary carry/defense weapon even though in a pinch it'll work for it. It's a fun gun to shoot and a bit of a novelty. Pretty much every friend I have takes a look at mine and says, "Holy chit man, I wanna shoot this thing!".... I mean, people buy things (including firearms) all the time because they are interesting, or fun or just unique with no expectation of the item being reasonable or efficient. A lot of folks in this thread are reacting as if this will be a person's only firearm.

I do get it...The Judge this thread is overpriced, ugly and certainly not something a reasonable person would use to defend their home. Calling it the "Home Defender" was probably a poor choice of names, as I can think of a lot of other guns I'd use for home defense (ie 870, AR, 1911). That said, this one is still a unique firearm that will no doubt appeal to a specific niche of the public.

 

[CO136]

Ok, that long barreled Judge is full on UGLY. Wouldn't own one. Won't own a Taurus again either (although the .22 pistol is interesting). I am, however, ok with the concept ... .45 / .410.

I own the Smith Governor and have for years. It's prettier than the Taurus, IMO. It's my portable 'Snake Poison' when I'm working around the place. Usually Spring, Summer, Fall when I'm out mowing, roto-tilling, splitting/stacking firewood, etc., I'm wearing it. Never killed a snake with it but I have wacked a couple of digger squirrels that let me get entirely to close (I hate diggers worse than snakes...).

It's a hoot to shoot. Never fired any .45 Colt or .45 ACP thru it. Just .410.

I suspect the Taurus would serve just as well (but NOT that long barreled thing).

 

[ilikegunspdx]

...
What I do have a problem with is the marketing behind it. It is not a "super effective" "pocket shotgun" like so much ad copy insinuates. It doe not take less skill to shoot effectively than any other platform, nor is the random and wide "spread" a commendable feature. The marketing of this product seems to be aimed squarely at much of the old myth and legend of firearms lore that has been debunked with more modern testing. I take umbrage with the continued spread of misinformation. I do not like that people are being convinced that something that is provable less than adequate is somehow better than more proven options.
...

All of the above post is very well said but the paragraph quoted above especially .

 

[OldBroad44]

The Taurus Judge, in all its forms, looks like the set-up to a really bad joke where the punchline is in a dead language that no living being can translate.

It just doesn't make sense.

Taurus Judge is the Black Aztec sweet corn of guns. The only people who plant Black Aztec are beginners at gardening or at growing sweet corn.

 

[OldBroad44]

My go-to defense against poisonous snakes--just go around them. If you don't see them and step on them they will probably bite you whatever gun you are carrying. Watch the trail for snakes out to at least 20' ahead. Just go around. The only time this didn't work for me was once when I was about 12 and walking in one of my favorite swamps near home (in Florida), and there was a huge cotton mouth coiled on the trail between me and home. The trail was very narrow with muck, potentially quick sand, on both sides. Only the dry trail offered safe footing. I approached snake gingerly, hoping snake would slither off. Nope. He glared at me and showed me his white lined mouth. "My trail. F off, kid!" I was unarmed. I Fed off. Turned around and took a much longer but snake free path home. Just an interesting adventure I couldn't tell anyone about. Wasn't supposed to be in swamp. At least, my mom, when we first moved to this house, said, "Dont go in the swamps. They are full of poisonous snakes." I was already a baby biologist/scientist/naturalist. I interpreted my mothers words as "Go in the swamps every day. They are full of poisonous snakes and other fascinating creatures."

The only circumstances where I would bother killing a poisonous snake would be: it was big enough to be worth killing for food when I was hiking or camping. Or it turned up in my yard or pasture, where it was a threat to children, dogs, pets, or livestock. Or it turned up in my campsite in the evening. (Rattlesnakes are notorious for being attracted to the warmth of sleeping campers.) Or it refused to leave the path and it wasn't possible to go around.

One of my SD drills is hitting dime sized circles (snake brain sized) at distances of 10 to 15'. For my 6" revolvers at about 10' I would hold over the front sight by about half its height. At 15' the holdover was about a quarter the height of the front sight. At closer than 10' I figured I'd be springing backward, not drawing a gun. I wouldn't want a snake load as the first one or two rounds in a gun, because I figure human snakes are a much more likely danger than snake snakes. And regular loads can kill a snake if you know how to aim. But snake loads are unlikely to kill a human snake.

 

[NobullSKS]

do you still get gas blow out from front of cylinder?