Mission essential AR15

[Tomahawk67]

Who were you with?

I worked on Tomahawk and Harpoon missile systems onboard the USS Long Beach and was not a team member. I have good friends on West and East coast Teams. Even their SCARs have quads.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Regarding the "They" use or have used...
I really don't care what anyone uses now... I just know that when I was in the business of chasing down and shooting bad guys...we didn't have much , if anything in the way of what I see on rifles now...
We made use of NVG's , a suppressor at times and only for the M21's we had and that was about it...

When I was doing these things....the prevailing thought was lasers and lights equal death...to you , not the other guy...
My thoughts and opinions are based on my experiences ...
And since I am here telling the tale and many bad guys aren't....that might be telling a lot in and of itself....

At the end of the day...use what you want...no need to to try to one up or say my way is better...
'Cause your way , which may indeed work for you...may not work for another...
Andy

 

[Tully Mars]

VERY well said Sir!

 

[Tony617]

No sling?

I consider a sling to be an essential part of the AR as well as a light.

 

[Tomahawk67]

Regarding the "They" use or have used...
I really don't care what anyone uses now... I just know that when I was in the business of chasing down and shooting bad guys...we didn't have much , if anything in the way of what I see on rifles now...
We made use of NVG's , a suppressor at times and only for the M21's we had and that was about it...

When I was doing these things....the prevailing thought was lasers and lights equal death...to you , not the other guy...
My thoughts and opinions are based on my experiences ...
And since I am here telling the tale and many bad guys aren't....that might be telling a lot in and of itself....

At the end of the day...use what you want...no need to to try to one up or say my way is better...
'Cause your way , which may indeed work for you...may not work for another...
Andy

So IR lights and lasers are bad? How do you identify and neutralize a target in the dark without them?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

With practice..and knowing where you are in relation to the bad guys...you can hunt then down and shoot them in the dark...I have done it...

I am not saying not to use these items .. I am saying that You don't necessarily need these items
Plus batteries can die , get lost....mounts can loosen , that can wreck your night...
IR lights can at times and under set conditions be detected...and lights can be seen by the bad guys ,,,so yeah that' s bad...

Again , for the record I did not say not to use them... I said we didn't use 'em very often when I was in and and I am still here to tell the tale....
Andy

So IR lights and lasers are bad? How do you identify and neutralize a target in the dark without them? View attachment 449957

 

[Andy54Hawken]

At the end of the day...use what you want...no need to to try to one up or say my way is better...
'Cause your way , which may indeed work for you...may not work for another...

Just quoting myself here to make myself clear.....
Andy

 

[21tango]

So IR lights and lasers are bad? How do you identify and neutralize a target in the dark without them? View attachment 449957

I think you should read my original post again carefully. I am very specific "mission essential". Ir is great for the night. Visible Lasers are a really bad idea (they are a direct path back to you) Any Tier one guy using a visible laser in combat is most likely NOT a tier one guy. Rails are a necessary evil I agree

 

[Tomahawk67]

I think you should read my original post again carefully. I am very specific "mission essential". Ir is great for the night. Visible Lasers are a really bad idea (they are a direct path back to you) Any Tier one guy using a visible laser in combat is most likely NOT a tier one guy. Rails are a necessary evil I agree

Vis lasers are totally not for combat.

 

[21tango]

So IR lights and lasers are bad? How do you identify and neutralize a target in the dark without them? View attachment 449957

All i have been saying is that i prefer my weapon naked and only add what is needed for specific missions. Its not a shot at you or any body else. Its what i was taught.

 

[Tomahawk67]

All i have been saying is that i prefer my weapon naked and only add what is needed for specific missions. Its not a shot at you or any body else. Its what i was taught.

That wasn't in response to your post. I'm in agreement with you.

 

[Flymph]

How often does anyone use the carry handle? I'm seriously asking...

 

[Ura-Ki]

We used N.O.D. A LOT, and found at least for our experience that it was the best set up for our needs. A little trit paint on the sights, or better the trit reticle of an ACOG made us far more effective with out having extra gear attached to our carbines, and if we had to transition to a sidearm, or a scattergun, or 203, it was simply done. Worst thing was a set of bright open trit sights, looked like a bunch of lightning bugs in an A.O. where there are none, and worst still, those lightning bugs flying in formation! Lol
Most times, I black taped my rear sight lamps, and rubbed a little moon dust on the front sight to dull it down, you could still see it with the nekid eye, and better is it didn't flare in your N.O.D! Flash lights were a big no no, especially in indoor situations where you are likely to telegraph your presence and position, not good! Suppressors or really effective flash hiders were mandatory for night ops, even our SAW and M-2s were set up with low flash ammo and good hiders, and let me tell you, an M-2 will cause all sorts of trouble when used at night! Even a 203 and a .12 gauge has a visable flash through N.O.D!
Sure wish I could afford a set of good Gen3 or 4 head gear, I would love to have that capability as a civilian!
Until then, a good lit reticle, and trit sights are the best I can do!

 

[Ura-Ki]

How often does anyone use the carry handle? I'm seriously asking...

Depends, a lot of folks were issued earlier A-1s and 2s and were taught to use them. As a handle it's self, not a lot to be quite honest, the larger weapons that have handles are useful, especially when handing one over, or working from prone, it' easy to pick up when you get up. It used to be the best iron sights on an AR type rifle was the carry handle sights, long before BUIS, so that's what we are used to, plus, personally, I really like the look and the handling qualities of a Carry handle AR! So to give an answer, it' really personal preference, if you plan to use big optics, a Carry handle might not be a good choice, but if your only going to have irons, it's IMHO the best set up!

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Depends, a lot of folks were issued earlier A-1s and 2s and were taught to use them.

This is so true of me at least ...as I have said when I was in the Army...we didn't have a lot of the items you see now on rifles....
We had various NVG's , the Starlight Scope and the occasional use of a suppressor on a M21...and this was when I was in assorted L.R.R.P / L.R.S.D units which were often "loaned" to other SF units...
So while I am not saying that I am or was with a "Badazz" type of unit...We weren't slackers either...

We were taught to use iron sights and yes even with iron sights you can make hits in low light and in the dark....
This takes lots of practice , to be effective...but it can be done.

Granted times have changed , thoughts and gear have been evolved since the last time I was in combat...
But a lot of guys are still around that remember a time when a rifle just had iron sights and were taught how to use 'em....and use 'em well...

And again...I am not saying to not make use of lights , lasers , scopes and whatnot....Just saying that one needs to be careful of being overly reliant on said items...
Gear can fail and usually it fails when you need it the most....so being able to use iron sights in all lighting conditions and practical ranges is a skill worth developing and keeping in practice with , even with the use of the above mentioned items....

I hope that no one is ever in need of taking a shot in low light or the dark with a "low tech" , non-tactical tricked out rifle...but I also hope that you don't end up dead 'cause you had no practice with iron sights either...

Failure to learn basic rifle marksmanship and skills with basic and simple iron sights , is not learning to be a "Rifleman" ... at least in my opinion.
Sure use a scope , lights and lasers or whatever else you choose...but after mastering the basics....
Gear can fail as I stated above...But a highly refined skill , that is practiced frequently , will seldom let you down...
Andy

 

[Ura-Ki]

Well said Andy!
I have had on two separate occasions a system failure on a fighting rifle ( and let's face it, a fighting rifle is what we're talking about here) and I thank the Gods I had my iron sights and the training to go with them.
We had one of the first Eotech sighting systems, they were all the rage in the spec ops world and every one wanted them, until they actually got one and realised how heavy they were. I was forward deployed as QRF and doing a heavy rescue, I banged into a rock wall hard and at just the right angle and busted that brand new sight system to hell. Ok, now WTF, Oh yeah I got back up irons, Good to go!
Second time, had my rifle on a single point doing a fast rope, and guess what, hit the dirt a little hard and my clip broke and the rifle did a lawn dart in the dirt and rocks, and wiped out the ACOG! Ch!t, Tango Foxtrot! Wait a min here, yup, got irons, were good! Point is something simple, even just bad luck can end your fight, and worse make you dead, and it make those relying on you hurt or dead, not something I wanna have happen, and I would feel responsable if I failed, even if just bad luck.
If your gear is good quality, proven reliable and durable, you TRAIN WITH IT, know it, love it, and can be effective with it when ch!t gets sporty, then by all and every means, run it, just make sure if some thing happens, it doesn't take out the basic rifle! A hard bent rifle is not only useless to you, but a danger to you and those around you! Be careful out there, the world isn't a nice place like the local range, things happen!

 

[Diamondback]

I hope that no one is ever in need of taking a shot in low light or the dark with a "low tech" , non-tactical tricked out rifle...but I also hope that you don't end up dead 'cause you had no practice with iron sights either...

Failure to learn basic rifle marksmanship and skills with basic and simple iron sights , is not learning to be a "Rifleman" ... at least in my opinion.
Sure use a scope , lights and lasers or whatever else you choose...but after mastering the basics....
Gear can fail as I stated above...But a highly refined skill , that is practiced frequently , will seldom let you down...
Andy

Andy, this is the exact reason why once the laser and RDS are zeroed on Mod Briefcase, I intend to yank their batteries and focus on learning to use my irons--I'm trying to set it up so that no matter which of the three is active the view will always be the same if I'm On Target, but for training focus on the fundamentals using the electronics only to confirm at most.

 

[Basedgreaser]

Plus batteries can die
Andy

And thats why im getting a trijicon accupoint no batteries necessary, among other reasons

 

[DuneHopper]

Never used much addon's even scopes, raised on iron sights just feel natural that way.
I don't like that scopes make me take away for S/A which I like better over seeing 300yards away.
Only addition I do like is the badlever as it make it easier not to switch around to much and in the topic of this thread
helps stay more rapidly on target at least for me. I had one all decked out looked like something from the movie Alien
and snagged and caught on everything. But what do I know its just how I like them.

 

[USMC-03]

My current AR and accompaniment. It's basic and a work in progress.

I've decided against a weapons light and will go to handgun/flashlight if in low light; I can't imagine being much further away than bad breath distance in that case.

No night vision, at least not yet. No real need for a laser.

My next addition, this week with luck, will be a 1x-4x scope; I've finally had to admit my eyes aren't what they used it be.

And if this kit isn't adequate I'll go back to my Garand.

An afterthought: I need to figure out a good sling, haven't had any experience with the latest 1 and 3 point styles.