Mini 14 vs. AR 15, your thoughts?

[coctailer]

I'm with you Will.

They are both good to me. The AR's accuracy shows up at 100 yards and beyond. \


View attachment 203079

Upgrade to the new 580 series Mini-14 and you won't be able to tell the 2 targets apart.

 

[The B]

They are both reliable IMO. I've had both barrels white hot numerous times.

shooting a gun barrel even close to that hot basically destroys the steel. erased rifling, warping, and then ruptures all occur well before "white" hot. not to mention, the rest of the weapon would be adversely effected- your handguards would have long since caught fire/melted, the weapon would be well past cookoff point, to the point where even inserting a magazine might cause rounds to detonate within the mag, etc.

not to mention the metallurgical changes that occur at that temperature.. i would imagine the steel would begin absorbing carbon very quickly, ruining the temper.. the barrel, once cool, and assuming it somehow survived being brought to near liquid steel temperature, would then be extremely brittle upon cool down.. so brittle that firing through it would probably not be safe. not that you'd want to anyway, since it'd be a crooked smoothbore by that point.

so you're either extremely lucky, or exaggerating quite a bit.

 

[Redcap]

WHITE WHITE HOT!! SMOKING!!! YEP )))) I used to do it all the time! The Mini has the AR beat on this experience too. That is for sure!

Yeah. Right.

 

[The B]

Final Report = "Fire To Destruction Test of U.S. M4A1 Carbine & M16A2 Rife Barrel(s)" - M4Carbine.net Forums

this is what it takes to make a barrel begin to glow red hot, and the result, in 4150CMV steel. almost as soon as it begins glowing, it droops.. and once it droops, kB follows almost immediately.



1600 degrees is well below "white hot", which fluctuates between steel series, but is generally around 2190 degrees fahrenheit.. which is basically melting point.

the barrel will begin to radiate brown/red light at as little as 1110dF, but it's such a low output that you'd only be able to detect the glow in pitch black with adjusted sight. the handguards/stock will probably begin to melt/warp/burn, if they havent already. any wood would have ignited somewhere around 700dF. at about 1400, when the barrel softens to a malleable state, you might begin to see a glow in ambient daylight.. by this point, you're altering the composition of the steel simply by exposing it to air, and rounds sent down the bore will begin to deform your rifling. by 1600 degrees, the barrel is rapidly deforming.. the barrel is glowing brightly cherry red about 4" in front of the bolt face.. rifling is most likely completely gone. assuming devine forces keep the barrel from rupturing- by 1800 degrees the barrel is glowing orange, and is probably being stretched out by every round fired. it's no longer capable of containing the probably close to 80,000 PSI every fired round is now generating (from around 55,000 PSI at cold), but assuming devine intervention- by 2000 dF, the barrel is now a bright yellow, and most people would probably call it "white hot," though it still isn't "white" by the Forgers Color Chart standard... but it is now about the consistency of firm clay. keep in mind, most of the color change is probably still isolated to the area directly in front of the chamber.. i doubt any great color change would ever occur forward of the block. by 2200, the steel is now "white hot," and the is about the consistency of chewed bubblegum... any hotter, and it will be a readily pour-able liquid.

 

[judicator]

very fascinating read, thank you, bkb2000

 

[coctailer]

Final Report = "Fire To Destruction Test of U.S. M4A1 Carbine & M16A2 Rife Barrel(s)" - M4Carbine.net Forums

this is what it takes to make a barrel begin to glow red hot, and the result, in 4150CMV steel. almost as soon as it begins glowing, it droops.. and once it droops, kB follows almost immediately.



1600 degrees is well below "white hot", which fluctuates between steel series, but is generally around 2190 degrees fahrenheit.. which is basically melting point.

the barrel will begin to radiate brown/red light at as little as 1110dF, but it's such a low output that you'd only be able to detect the glow in pitch black with adjusted sight. the handguards/stock will probably begin to melt/warp/burn, if they havent already. any wood would have ignited somewhere around 700dF. at about 1400, when the barrel softens to a malleable state, you might begin to see a glow in ambient daylight.. by this point, you're altering the composition of the steel simply by exposing it to air, and rounds sent down the bore will begin to deform your rifling. by 1600 degrees, the barrel is rapidly deforming.. the barrel is glowing brightly cherry red about 4" in front of the bolt face.. rifling is most likely completely gone. assuming devine forces keep the barrel from rupturing- by 1800 degrees the barrel is glowing orange, and is probably being stretched out by every round fired. it's no longer capable of containing the probably close to 80,000 PSI every fired round is now generating (from around 55,000 PSI at cold), but assuming devine intervention- by 2000 dF, the barrel is now a bright yellow, and most people would probably call it "white hot," though it still isn't "white" by the Forgers Color Chart standard... but it is now about the consistency of firm clay. keep in mind, most of the color change is probably still isolated to the area directly in front of the chamber.. i doubt any great color change would ever occur forward of the block. by 2200, the steel is now "white hot," and the is about the consistency of chewed bubblegum... any hotter, and it will be a readily pour-able liquid.

Cool.
Here are some uppers from a barrel erosion test.
Under full auto fire, the gas tubes on some eroded before the chamber egged out. That occurred about 15,000 rounds.
Everything seemed to hold up fine including the rifling. The weakest links were the gas tubes and chambers.
I was going to make them into full auto blank firing prop guns.

 

[The B]

i've always been sort of puzzled by how gas tubes hold up.. having run a FA test, you've probably seen tube sag during extended FA fire- how the crap do those little steel tubes keep from popping? you'd think if it's soft enough to sag, it'd be soft enough to rupture under the 10-15k PSI flowing through those things.

do you have a report from the FA test? what was the firing schedule? was that a .gov endeavor?

 

[coctailer]

i've always been sort of puzzled by how gas tubes hold up.. having run a FA test, you've probably seen tube sag during extended FA fire- how the crap do those little steel tubes keep from popping? you'd think if it's soft enough to sag, it'd be soft enough to rupture under the 10-15k PSI flowing through those things.

do you have a report from the FA test? what was the firing schedule? was that a .gov endeavor?

It was a Bushmaster barrel erosion test. Mack Gwinn (MGI)was in charge.
I don't get into the techy stuff much. I'm just parroting the points Mack found interesting.

I'm sure some of the tubes did indeed pop. On some of the uppers, the tube was missing all together from the FSB back. I had to drill out the remnants from a few of the FSBs to install new tubes.

On other uppers the test ended before the tube even warped. All of the throats were fubared though.

On a couple of the worst ones with "cottage cheese" throats, I replaced the gas tube and was able to hit man sized rocks at Memaloose.

 

[Spitpatch]

Kenno has information he believes I lack.
His method of delivery is cryptic.
I await any enlightenment he may offer, and will regard it with all attention.

 

[Bruce]

cw009, is there a bolt roller on the Mini-14 like there is on the M-14? And does it require grease like the M-14? I have never handled a Mini-14. I do know there were changes in the gas system.

 

[Bruce]

Thanks cw009, I'm sure someone here will know about the yes/no on the bolt roller on a Mini-14.

I also go back and forth between light and heavy lube on weapons. Living in the north west I put more lube on my duty pistol and rifle in the colder months because they are in and out of my house and experience more temperature changes and are subject to condensation. In the warmer months I like to keep the lube to just moving parts.

 

[ob1]

Though, I hear the newer Mini 14's are far more accurate. Wouldn't mind shooting a new one. I really like them except for the inferior performance of the three I've owned

Ok, I'll throw this one out to any of you mini experts. Not having owned one, what exactly is the issue with the early mini's. Is it the barrel alone or are there other issues with the early ones. I have heard them discussed by series, ie 180 or 181 series (I assume that refers to production dates by the sn) Is the 180 series a total basket case ?

Reason I ask is I have an option to pick up an early model for a fairly low investment. From what I am reading from some of you they rank about the same as an SKS.

 

[salmonriverjohn]

I own several Mini's,, one colt 15 and a bush master. The mini's are more reliable, the colt a little tempermental and the bushmaster is an all around good weapon,,,, that said, if I had to reach for just one to take into any condition anywhere, anytime,,,My choice would be the Galleil! by far a better and much more accurate weapon then either right from the factory. I know you asked about the mini vs. the 15, but that would be my go to. Simple AK design, .223,, the easiest to clean and far more weapon for your money,, just my two cents worth.

 

[coctailer]

Ok, I'll throw this one out to any of you mini experts. Not having owned one, what exactly is the issue with the early mini's. Is it the barrel alone or are there other issues with the early ones. I have heard them discussed by series, ie 180 or 181 series (I assume that refers to production dates by the sn) Is the 180 series a total basket case ?

Reason I ask is I have an option to pick up an early model for a fairly low investment. From what I am reading from some of you they rank about the same as an SKS.

An SKS is accurate and reliable. That is a good thing to be like an SKS.

 

[coctailer]

Here is where you will find all the Mini-14 answers you could ever have.

PerfectUnion BBS - Powered by vBulletin

 

[longcolt]

With a nice 4+ power scope the Mini-14 ranch rifle in SS and synthetic stock will work well for nailing coyotes and other preditors.

Its made to toss in the truck and be available when you need it. Short, quick into action and accurate enough to hit the kill zone out at a fair distance. For home or ranch protection it works well for the money.

The AR is the better target weapon, sniper weapon for distance, no question. But I like the M-14 better for that role and for all around toughness.

Just my personal opinion. Its really all about what you like. Like buying Chevys and Fords.

 

[ron]

I have owned 3 different mini-14's. The mini is fun to shoot but it is no match for the AR.
The AR is hands down much more accurate and more versatile. I have sold all the Mini's and presently own 5 AR 'lowers' and 7 AR 'uppers'. Three for NRA High Power Rifle competition. Which shoots out to 600 yards. The AR service rifle presently completely dominates High Power Rifle competition. I own a Colt, Rock River (2), Bushmaster and a Smith and Wesson. They are all good lowers I would recommend the Rock River.

 

[longcolt]

I have owned 3 different mini-14's. The mini is fun to shoot but it is no match for the AR.
The AR is hands down much more accurate and more versatile. I have sold all the Mini's and presently own 5 AR 'lowers' and 7 AR 'uppers'. Three for NRA High Power Rifle competition. Which shoots out to 600 yards. The AR service rifle presently completely dominates High Power Rifle competition. I own a Colt, Rock River (2), Bushmaster and a Smith and Wesson. They are all good lowers I would recommend the Rock River.

Yea, but they are soooooo "Black" and evil looking! The AR's just scare the public since they are military look alikes.

 

[Ranger90]

The AR15 is going to prove to be more accurate and dependable at the price range you are looking at ($700-900). When you are talking about a difference in price of $50-150 between the Ruger Mini14 and the AR15 I would recommend saving up the extra money and buying the more capable rifle.

 

[drew]

Here is where you will find all the Mini-14 answers you could ever have.

PerfectUnion BBS - Powered by vBulletin

Awesome! Looks like a great resource.