Meanwhile in the gun-less utopia of Britan...

[Jamie6.5]

Maybe you should explore your own link a little better 8ball.
From the links available in that article:
<broken link removed>
Please note the data on page 6 of the pdf, showing 50 homicides in 2010 ands 59 deaths in 2011, from "sharp objects."
Then there's that little tidbit about "knife crime where the victim was seriously injured" in Calendar year 2010 on page 4 of the pdf, showing 1246 seriously injured.
And in 2011 (on page 5) 1363 seriously injured.

Then factor in the fact that treatment facilities ARE NOT REQUIRED to report knife crimes/injuries to the police.
So how many go unreported?

But most importantly, do you think NYC's gun-crime deaths would rise if guns and carry permits were easier to get?
Or would gun-crime deaths fall like they have in every other city where shall issue laws have been implemented?
My money is on the latter. The pattern is clear.

 

[4Freedom]

Yeah 8ball, you sound like you are off the mark.. 6 Knife murders in Southwark alone.. 59 people stabbed to death.. That is three times the number of overall murders we have in Seattle in a year and that is just the knife murders, not the gun homicides in London, which are also rising.

 

[just dan]

if anyone wants to add to that the whole "UK law enforcement has always been so forthcoming with their data as well"

I don't care if the queen herself says otherwise... lots of people there are killed by knives. 6 is BS.

 

[8ball]

Sorry, I misquoted that article - that was just two boroughs. Duh. The correct number was 59 for 2011 as quoted above by Jamie.

Regardless - The original claim was 'London has more knife murders than many large American cities have gun murders'. I'm not disputing London has lots of knife murders, but I've yet to see anything that convinces me that claim is true.

E.g. Check out http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/wk/mm6018.pdf for 2006

Of the 50 largest cities in the US, about 45 of them have more gun homicides a year than London has knife homicides. And London is a very large city, comparable more to LA or NYC than it is to Austin or San Jose.

 

[Mark W.]

My stepdad was beat to death with a pipe in Plymouth England in 2003.

The method doesn't matter Murder is illegal.

 

[fd15k]

Okay, so one mass shooting was brought up. There were a couple of others in last 20 years or so. So there are these two questions :

- Are there less mass shootings in UK than there are in US ?
- Are there less gun deaths in UK than there are in the US (per capita) ?

I mean the answer is obvious. You guys need to remember, that antis aren't arguing for less violence and crime. They are arguing for less gun violence. All that stuff about number of stabbings, total crime in UK, is kind of irrelevant. It's the wrong angle to debate.

 

[Mark W.]

Well yes and no

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The USA has about 3.7 gun related homicides per 100,000 this includes people shot by police.

The UK has .04 gun related homicides per 100,000 this includes people shot by police

But then the police shoot very few people in the UK. Here well lets just say more then a few.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Okay, so one mass shooting was brought up. There were a couple of others in last 20 years or so. So there are these two questions :

- Are there less mass shootings in UK than there are in US ?
- Are there less gun deaths in UK than there are in the US (per capita) ?

I mean the answer is obvious. You guys need to remember, that antis aren't arguing for less violence and crime. They are arguing for less gun violence. All that stuff about number of stabbings, total crime in UK, is kind of irrelevant. It's the wrong angle to debate.

Says who? The guy that supports the gun-control side of politics?
That is a HUGE part of what is wrong here.
The antis don't want to debate the REAL issue, they only want to address their personal fear. The gun.

The number of stabbings, or clubbings, or assaults with a weapon of any kind are certainly relevant, as it better portrays a given society's propensity for violence AND crime. Especially violent crime.

When the U.K or other "gunless" society claims they have fewer gun deaths, or less gun violence, so what? That proves NOTHING by itself, and is an illusory argument designed specifically to ignore (among other things) the issue of overall crime and the ability to defend oneself.

By making those claims as if they are a benefit to society as a whole, they need to show that violence perpetrated against the innocent and law abiding went down in the process.
Claiming a lack of "gun violence" in the vacuum of crime statistics is MEANINGLESS without considering the overall picture of violent crime, the threat of violence in the commission of crimes, and the gun's overall role on both sides of the issue of crime, in a given society.

Hell, even Ghandi and the Dalai Lama saw the suppression of arms in the hands of the oppressed as wrong. Crime, and the threat of violence as a means to commit crimes is form of oppression of the 1st order!

Is it any coincidence that we have NO MEANINGFUL METHOD of tracking self defenses and crimes stopped with a gun?
Is it any coincidence that after Australia's gun ban, that home invasions skyrocketed?
Is it any coincidence that overall crime rates here in the states have plummeted after "shall issue" statutes were passed into law?
Or that the antis don't want those statistics considered in the debate?
That they just want to talk about "gun violence?"

When a woman defends herself against a thug rapist (that is on probation, or not) with a gun, that wounding and/or death goes in the "gun violence" statistical column.
That's just nuts.

We, as Americans, are supposed to be secure in our dwellings, and entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As such, we are not to be subjected to the law of the jungle, or Darwinian principles in our participation in society, or as we go about our daily lives.

The anti's aren't arguing for less gun violence, they are arguing for fewer guns, and ignoring the total violence (crime) statistics for a reason.
They don't want to talk about self defense, or the gun as a deterrent, especially when statistics have proven that, just the possibility that a potential victim MAY BE armed, is often enough to prevent crime.

And while guns are not completely illegal in the U.K., pistols might as well be, their use as we know it here in the states, certainly is.
The Brits won't let you "stand your ground" with a stick, much less a gun.
Just like the misguided folks in Great Britain don't allow self defense AT ALL, the antis here in the states don't see it as justifiable, or a reason to keep and bear the greatest equalizer available to Americans.

It is completely disingenuous (and "wrongheaded") when the "enlightened" talk about "civilized society" and "human dignity" and then turn around and demand that you submit to the first scumball that approaches you with a knife or a club, and demands your watch and wallet, or your daughter's virginity.
They are neither enlightened, nor do they understand civilized society, or appreciate human dignity.
If they valued ANY of the three, they'd own a gun, and carry it.

 

[8ball]

When the U.K or other "gunless" society claims they have fewer gun deaths, or less gun violence, so what? That proves NOTHING by itself, and is an illusory argument designed specifically to ignore the issue of the ability to defend oneself.

By making those claims as if they are a benefit to society as a whole, they need to show that violence perpetrated against the innocent and law abiding went down in the process.

I agree, but I was responding to a specific quote ('London has more knife murders than many large American cities have gun murders') that made a claim which was wrong.

In general, I think it's a very bad idea to do comparisons with other countries re gun laws. As you pointed out, other countries are not the US. And people are invariably wrong about crime/gun laws/politics in the UK, Australia, Switzerland, Israel etc, so when someone comes along who knows the facts, it actually makes our argument look weaker, not stronger.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I agree, but I was responding to a specific quote ('London has more knife murders than many large American cities have gun murders') that made a claim which was wrong.

In general, I think it's a very bad idea to do comparisons with other countries re gun laws. As you pointed out, other countries are not the US. And people are invariably wrong about crime/gun laws/politics in the UK, Australia, Switzerland, Israel etc, so when someone comes along who knows the facts, it actually makes our argument look weaker, not stronger.

Honest comparisons never make our argument weaker.
Those that argue "gun violence" in a discussion that fails to address all forms of violence and crime, are being dishonest.
Don't let them get away with it.

If someone threatens you with a club or a knife, and you surrender your watch/wallet/wife/purse etc. without getting clubbed or stabbed, you are a victim of crime, but not violence.

On the other hand, if instead of submitting to the guy with the club, you shoot him, that gets entered into the statistics as "gun violence."
(And if it happens in D.C., or Chicago, where concealed carry is forbidden, protecting yourself that way will land you in prison with a felony conviction.)

That is not only statistically misleading, it is disingenuous at best, and outright WRONG at worst.
And the following week, some anti-gun pundit will be using the fact that you defended your life, your liberty, your belongings, or your source of happiness, as evidence that the U.S. suffers from more "gun violence" than other countries.

Stop the insanity.
Demand accountability and honest debate.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Just so we're clear here, I decided to look up a few facts for comparison.
Violent crime statistics were sourced from here:
Crime in New York City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here:
Crime in Los Angeles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And here:
Violent crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looking at the numbers, violent crime rates in New York and Los Angeles were 581 and 559 per 100,000 population respectively.
In the U.K., violent crime rates were 470 per 10,000 population! That's not just the city of London, but areas that include rural communities as well, which have WAAAYYY lower crime rates than inner cities.

That equals a rate of violent crime that is more than 8 TIMES higher in the U.K. overall (not just London) than in New York City or Los Angeles.

Stop the insanity.
Demand accountability and honest debate.

 

[4Freedom]

Maybe they should ban murder and crime? Making things illegal doesn't work, but when they ban it, then everybody pays attention. Well, at least the media and all the terrified, bleeding-heart sheeple who need an immediate fix-all solution to the problem. They just need to be told everything is going to be better. Ban crime and murder and people will no longer feel inclined to perform such acts.

I think Murder and Crime Free Zones may be an excellent solution! Seriously, has any crime been committed in a place labelled "Crime Free Zone". Or what about Murder? Yes, people murder people, but has there ever been a murder performed in an area with a sign explicitly condemning the BANNED act of Murder? Perhaps we can even make a threat that penalties will be doubled in the Murder Free Zones! Like the guy who murdered his grandmother with a hammer. If he did this in a murder free zone, he would get 34, not 17 years for this murder!

This could be the solution! Maybe we can get it rushed into Congress?