M193 accuracy

[Joe13]

The M193 is MOM accurate (Minute Of Man).

If you have a 3 inch group at 100 yards with iron sights; you are in high cotton. Not that many people can do that.

Really? No sarcasm here.

I really need to attend a few low key competitions - I have no idea what an average shooter vs a noob vs an above average shooter looks like other then people I've been out plinking with.

I can hit an apple at 100 yards with iron sights about 90-95% of the time I guess.

 

[Koda]

thanks for the compliments but befor we go further lets scrutinize my shots because im not certain how to measure MOA.... do you include "outlyers" or just the major group?

in my first post I said "3 maybe 3.5" but I forgot about the diameter when I was considering an outlyer, if included could make the group more like 4".

what I mean by "outlyer" is any shot that is out of place from the group.... my thoughts are by excluding these I can remove random human error from determining the accuracy of the rifle... if that makes sense. Im a hunter, this is just what Ive always done sighting in. IOW, I dont stress about the outlyers...

also, I was shooting prone with a harris bipod. I dont have a range membership so I have a few secret spots in the woods... was a nice day for it. I have 2 paper target stands I set up in line, one at 50yds and the other at 100. My iron sights are Diamondhead polymer flip ups.

here is an example of one of my targets. For scale, I drew tick marks at 1" and I drew a 3" circle. In this example, the major group seems to walk around the bullseye.... I was ok with that as I had other targets where I hit it.

 

[Boboclown]

Measure MOA by measuring one hole of the group to the last. I'll do a doodle to show what I mean in a bit, not at my computer.

 

[Boboclown]

Here's a rough doodle on how one would measure the group. Center of the first hole to the center of the farthest. For the sake of example, this is a 3 MOA group (not literally). Where it gets tough is when they're touching, I just measure edge to edge and subtract diameter in that case but don't quote me on that.

 

[Koda]

View attachment 291928
Here's a rough doodle on how one would measure the group. Center of the first hole to the center of the farthest. For the sake of example, this is a 3 MOA group (not literally). Where it gets tough is when they're touching, I just measure edge to edge and subtract diameter in that case but don't quote me on that.

so that example would be 3 inches apart...?

 

[Boboclown]

In that example yes. Technically 3.1416 if it was 3 MOA, but its just simpler to round it.

 

[Koda]

@Koda -

Check out the standards from Appleseed = Rifleman
Typical is you can hit a 1-in square at 25 yrds.
That is 4-sq in at 100.


If you are comfortably hitting a 3 in group - good job!


I'd also recommend an Appleseed event to help you improve. Your MSR with iron sights would generally be considered a good choice to earn a Rifleman patch with.

Project Appleseed on NWFA
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/forums/project-appleseed.125/

this is cool to learn about. I would like to check this out at some point, Im interested. I don't know how soon though I would be able to but will check out the Appleseed website and learn more.

 

[Member 5605]

Really? No sarcasm here.

I really need to attend a few low key competitions - I have no idea what an average shooter vs a noob vs an above average shooter looks like other then people I've been out plinking with.
.

No joke me too!
May be fun.

 

[Member 5605]

View attachment 291928
Here's a rough doodle on how one would measure the group. Center of the first hole to the center of the farthest. For the sake of example, this is a 3 MOA group (not literally). Where it gets tough is when they're touching, I just measure edge to edge and subtract diameter in that case but don't quote me on that.

As seen by this computer approach:
https://instagram.com/p/BB-s4pSISe8/
Notice the black box is the outside of all shots, then the green is where actual measurements take place. Hard to mark out a 5 shot pattern like that sometimes.

The shots are marked, scale is given. Then it calculates based upon the bullet diameter (.308") and spits out your overall distances. Measure widest shots, subtract bullet diameter. You have your pattern size. If you elect to leave out a flier then so be it. That's your choice, nobody will criticize you for it. I've done it too on this group:
https://instagram.com/p/BCLfp_2oSet/
There was a 10th shot low, low to the right. Since it was atypical I omitted it.

You are spot on though with your measurements.

 

[Ura-Ki]

One thing Koda, With the M193 is if your AR has a faster twist then 1/9. M193 was originally designed around a 1/12 twist. My old AR180 would consistently show about a 2 in group. My 1/7 twist AR shoots what looks like flyers because of the twist. To see if it is you or the rifle ( or a combo) try some M855 or like ammo and see if you get tighter groups! 3 moa is the standard Mil spec for the M-4 so you are about where you should be, but me thinks your set up might do a little better!

 

[AMProducts]

So the spec that M193 (and most military ammo is held to) is 2MOA radial, this means everything should impact within ~4" of the "group center" at 100 yards. FYI, 1MOA is actually 1.047"@100yds and 1.13"@100M Typically most ammo is better than this, but that's what's considered acceptable.

In all honesty, I think you're doing pretty good. Over the years I've become a bit reliant on optics, I can still hit MoM out to 800 yards, but really getting the group tight is a bit more difficult these days.

 

[Koda]

One thing Koda, With the M193 is if your AR has a faster twist then 1/9. M193 was originally designed around a 1/12 twist. My old AR180 would consistently show about a 2 in group. My 1/7 twist AR shoots what looks like flyers because of the twist. To see if it is you or the rifle ( or a combo) try some M855 or like ammo and see if you get tighter groups! 3 moa is the standard Mil spec for the M-4 so you are about where you should be, but me thinks your set up might do a little better!

mine is 1/7 twist, I have some M855 but got a vreat deal on 500rds of M193. Im aware I should get heavier grain loads for thr 1/7 but Ive learned that M193 is a bit cheaper and I dont like steel core for shooting in the woods in summer. I find it odd there isnt really much else to buy in 5.56 out there in bulk loads.

 

[Koda]

So the spec that M193 (and most military ammo is held to) is 2MOA radial, this means everything should impact within ~4" of the "group center" at 100 yards. FYI, 1MOA is actually 1.047"@100yds and 1.13"@100M

good to know, this is actually the info I was looking for in this thread..... for some reason I cant find much info from manufactures on M193 MOA.


for MOA I always round to 1", I think they call this "shooters MOA" (SMOA)

 

[Caveman Jim]

I've never used open sights before, this is my first time. I zeroed my AR at 100yds with M193 and came up with about a 3"... maybe 3.5" group at the end of the day. Is that good or bad?

next I want to try some premium loads in .223 to compare, but that's another day. I'm not certain how accurate M193 is nore what others get with iron sights. 3" MOA doesn't even compare to what I'm used to with a scope especially at 100yds...

does anyone use iron sights what MOA do you get at 100yds?

It's your eyes man..... I do not use I S for accuracy, leave that up to my red/green dot scopes which are dialed in to ring a 5" steel plate at 100 yards (every time)... I use PMC .223 and like it but working on a custom load with my newfound hobby.

 

[AMProducts]

good to know, this is actually the info I was looking for in this thread..... for some reason I cant find much info from manufactures on M193 MOA.


for MOA I always round to 1", I think they call this "shooters MOA" (SMOA)

There are two control documents for "ammunition" there is typically one for the particular cartridge (M193, M196, M855, M856...etc) and then there's a uniform testing methodology. For M193 the standard is MIL-C-9963 rev F is the most current (dated 1976). The one that actually contains the accuracy standards and the like is an access controlled document called "SCATP-5.56" there are also versions for 7.62 and pretty much every other cartridge in inventory.

Generally speaking, anything you find in the public sphere is likely not type acceptable for anything military. If it were it would have to conform with the above standards, as well as MIL-STD-1168 (labeling and record keeping).

The actual requirement, is a bit more complicated than the one I gave you, but that's pretty much what it is. It's the one I use when developing and testing ammo. Usually from a benched gun (AR-15 in a sled) I expect groups between 1 and 1.5" (center to center) at 50 yards, which is a bit less than twice what you were getting, but it's shot from a sled, on a blank sheet of paper as only group size matters. As long as the gun doesn't move, it is what you get.

Personally, the front sight post of the AR sucks, switching to a thinner blade has really helped my precision quite a bit.

 

[Koda]

Personally, the front sight post of the AR sucks, switching to a thinner blade has really helped my precision quite a bit.

I was wondering about this because Im on the fence if I like my set or not.... they work and are accurate but Im not certain about the diamond aperature or the nitebright paint, and the front post is not milspec so I cant replace it (that I know of) with a thinner one.

http://www.diamondhead-usa.com/coll...ond-integrated-sighting-system-with-nitebrite

 

[AMProducts]

I was wondering about this because Im on the fence if I like my set or not.... they work and are accurate but Im not certain about the diamond aperature or the nitebright paint, and the front post is not milspec so I cant replace it (that I know of) with a thinner one.

http://www.diamondhead-usa.com/coll...ond-integrated-sighting-system-with-nitebrite

Yea, I think you may be pooched on that one. This is a major reason why I try to stay as COTS as possible with all my builds. I keep trying to justify buying a SCAR 16-S, but then I'm like "but the M203 won't fit on it" and I don't know that I'll be able to get that GL. Which means I may go with the 17S with a longer barrel, rail extension, and a can... but jesus that's like $5k before I even put optics on it.

My AR cost me less than $650, fits my GL, and goes bang. Yea, there is no perfect, but the closer you get to perfect the more it costs.