M193 accuracy

[Koda]

I've never used open sights before, this is my first time. I zeroed my AR at 100yds with M193 and came up with about a 3"... maybe 3.5" group at the end of the day. Is that good or bad?

next I want to try some premium loads in .223 to compare, but that's another day. I'm not certain how accurate M193 is nore what others get with iron sights. 3" MOA doesn't even compare to what I'm used to with a scope especially at 100yds...

does anyone use iron sights what MOA do you get at 100yds?

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[Boboclown]

M193 isn't a precision round. 3 MOA with open sights sounds about right IMO.

 

[Medic!]

M193 isn't a precision round. 3 MOA with open sights sounds about right IMO.

That's about what I get in my Colt 1/9 barrel.

My 1/12 barrel guns cut that in half.

 

[Koda]

good to know, thanks for the replies. I want to try some premium loads now to see if the group improves but didnt want to waste them if my M193 sight in sucked. Plus I might go out to 200 yds next as well...


I like the simplicity of only the open sights on the rifle..... I still am considering a scope, depending on how good or bad I am at longer range its so much simpler.

 

[Joe13]

good to know, thanks for the replies. I want to try some premium loads now to see if the group improves but didnt want to waste them if my M193 sight in sucked. Plus I might go out to 200 yds next as well...


I like the simplicity of only the open sights on the rifle..... I still am considering a scope, depending on how good or bad I am at longer range its so much simpler.

I like iron sights out to 150ish but after that my sight isn't so good. Good enough to hit a milk jug past that but I won't be taking ground squirls at that distance.

I'd play with your iron sights for awhile before you scope or dot is. Especially, if this is the first rifle you've used open sights on. You'll get better with practice for sure.

 

[PiratePast40]

My understanding is that M193 isn't generally available to the public since it's a NATO spec. Manufactures can make similar ammunition, but it doesn't necessarily meet the spec.

 

[Member 5605]

That's accurate enough for M193.

I was out at the range with a LEO friend and he was sighting in his service AR.

We were using Federal Match. 1.5" groups at 100 with magnified Aimpoint.

Swapped to M193 and went to a 5" pattern.

 

[Medic!]

My understanding is that M193 isn't generally available to the public since it's a NATO spec. Manufactures can make similar ammunition, but it doesn't necessarily meet the spec.

I won't Tell you how many rounds of Lake City 5.56 ammo I have with the LC / nato cross head stamp.

I don't want people thinking I caused the last two ammo shortages.

 

[decklin]

In the army we use a target placed at 25m. The silhouette is sized to represent a person at 300m. There is a 4cm circle over center mass.
To zero you must group within that circle. You set your site adjustments based off whether you are using a carrying handle or BUIS.
This is only if you're zeroing for 300 meters. You can print the targets for free.

 

[Koda]

In the army we use a target placed at 25m. The silhouette is sized to represent a person at 300m. There is a 4cm circle over center mass.
To zero you must group within that circle. You set your site adjustments based off whether you are using a carrying handle or BUIS.
This is only if you're zeroing for 300 meters. You can print the targets for free.

I thought about doing that but im so used to the tradional civilian100yd sight in zero I decided to stay with that. After looking at its trajectory (in another thread...) I wasnt impressed with the amount of rise at the intermediate ranges like 100yds...

its also my understanding thats called a "battlefield sight in" where if for some reason you had to rezero in quick conditions.... do they always use that sight in?

 

[decklin]

I thought about doing that but im so used to the tradional civilian100yd sight in zero I decided to stay with that. After looking at its trajectory (in another thread...) I wasnt impressed with the amount of rise at the intermediate ranges like 100yds...

its also my understanding thats called a "battlefield sight in" where if for some reason you had to rezero in quick conditions.... do they always use that sight in?

To the best of m knowledge, yes. It's also called a mechanical zero.

 

[Koda]

My understanding is that M193 isn't generally available to the public since it's a NATO spec. Manufactures can make similar ammunition, but it doesn't necessarily meet the spec.

its all nato spec or they would not be able to call it M193.
the ammo I bought is Federal Independance M193 which I was told is made in Isreal for the military. Everything we have available on the civilian market is surplus....

(this is probably why none of the surplus manufacturers list ballistic info on their websites...)

 

[Koda]

I like iron sights out to 150ish but after that my sight isn't so good. Good enough to hit a milk jug past that but I won't be taking ground squirls at that distance.

my guess is 150 is about as far as I would practically want with irons but Ive lways been curious how some people shoot farther with them.... especially with ammo like M193 that doesnt do much better than 3MOA at 100.
what Im thinking is trying some premium loads but then I might as well use .223. But then that gets expensive...

 

[Boboclown]

PMC makes M855 and M193. IICR its from the same manufacturer that produces ammo for thr South Korean military.

 

[Medic!]

I thought about doing that but im so used to the tradional civilian100yd sight in zero I decided to stay with that. After looking at its trajectory (in another thread...) I wasnt impressed with the amount of rise at the intermediate ranges like 100yds...

its also my understanding thats called a "battlefield sight in" where if for some reason you had to rezero in quick conditions.... do they always use that sight in?

My 16'' M-4gery. Shoots XM-193 at 3175FPS when measured at 15' with my chrono.

With a Coa. of .269 and 2.6'' tall Iron sights. If I Zero at 60 yds. I'm also zeroed at 200 yds.
That's +.9'' at 100yds and +1.1 from 115yds to 150yds. [Top of its flight curve]. And -6.6'' at 300yds.
Nice and flat to 200yds!

Want proof and a little fun? Then go to the JBM Calculator free online and check the numbers.

And battle sights are just sights set to expected engagement distances [Quick and dirty sighting].
From there you can adjust the sight elevation to compensate for longer shots. Then return to your ''battle sighting''.

 

[mrblond]

I am not a precision shooter, nor are any of my firearms, well, most of my firearms built for it. So If I can shoot whatever ammo, M193,M885, minute of badguy, I am a happy shooter.

I take that back, my Guncrafters are super accurate.

 

[RicInOR]

@Koda -

Check out the standards from Appleseed = Rifleman
Typical is you can hit a 1-in square at 25 yrds.
That is 4-sq in at 100.


If you are comfortably hitting a 3 in group - good job!


I'd also recommend an Appleseed event to help you improve. Your MSR with iron sights would generally be considered a good choice to earn a Rifleman patch with.

Project Appleseed on NWFA
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/forums/project-appleseed.125/

 

[Member 5605]

So @Koda, years ago I had a few AR builds and one was a heavy barreled 22" setup... With off the shelf ammo on a precision barrel the best I could shoot was 2" groupings.

You would find though that handloads with consistent powder drops will lend to more accurate shooting. I would load 55gr FMJ pills and they shot around 1MOA using bulk drop (+/- .2gr) of powder. Even shooting standard FMJ .223 rounds may or may not shrink your minute of man patterns.

Splurge (on a box of spendy stuff) or find a local NWFA'er who will help you load up a dozen or thirty rounds with exact powder weights. See how your rifle does with consistent ammo.

Then factor in the human error.
If you are down in my neighborhood I'd be glad to assist with some range loads, could also chrono some factory ammo and find just how accurate your rifle will shoot (minus the hooman behind the trigger).

Variable vs constant errors.

I saw a nice diagram that showed rifle MOA error vs human. It really put it into perspective when shooting say a 2 MOA rifle and you are 2MOA variable as well, how your pattern can end up 0-4MOA off target. (Assuming precision ammo)


But for everything you are doing remember two words: BULK AMMO.

 

[bbbass]

I can't see jack, so I have to have a scoped rifle for any distance above CQB. But for another example to verify... My 18.5" 1/9 .223 Wylde barreled rifle shoots 3" groups at 100yds from a rest using 5.56 surplus. 2" groups using .223 factory. And <0.5" groups using .223 handloads that I've dialed in. FWIW

 

[Deebow]

The M193 is MOM accurate (Minute Of Man).

If you have a 3 inch group at 100 yards with iron sights; you are in high cotton. Not that many people can do that.