Looking for HD recommendations for an older family member

[Member 34319]

Would help to include info on WTF it is...

Fightlite SCR.

 

[American123]

This sounds like a search for a talisman more than something she will use.

She's realistically (based on what has been described) never going to devote any time to becoming proficient, already represents a safety hazard when possessing one, and anything more intricate than "pull trigger and it goes bang out this end" sounds more complicated than she is capable of, .

KISS - full framed .38 with external hammer. Semi auto's even when extremely reliable, can still have primer failures. It appears if that happened in a semi auto, she wouldn't know how to clear it, in a revolver, you don't need to, you just pull the trigger again.

Anything more than this appears to be projection of your desires rather than her actual competency, or the realistic proficiency she will have even with some practice.

 

[User 1234]

Many semi autos also allow you to pull the trigger again on a hard primer. However, if a cartridge fails to fire in either kind the proper immediate action is to rack the slide to chamber a fresh cartridge and fire that one.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Hello All:

I'd like to lean on the community's experience for help finding a suitable home defense firearm for a much loved older aunt of mine that isn't in the greatest of health anymore. I took her to the indoor range at the Clackamas County Sheriff's office a while ago after discovering that her "home defense" weapon was a Raven MP-25. Honestly the caliber doesn't bother me because her arm strength isn't what it used to be, so the small size and light recoil is good. But the reliability is as bad as you assume it is based on the manufacturer. Her eyesight is also declining a bit, and it was difficult for her to line up the sights on a few different handguns (my apologies to CCSO for the hole in the ceiling). She walks with a cane a lot of the time, but can get around without it. She also has some balance issues so light recoil is very important. Powerful rounds that stop a bad guy in one shot are great, but I am firmly in the camp that places a higher priority on reliability, manageable recoil, and ease of handling.

The only hard requirements I would place on recommendations is they must accept a rail or sight mount so I can give her a red dot or holosight, and that it must be semi-auto. I can do the cleaning for her every now and then, I just don't want her to have to manipulate anything between shots.

Thanks for your input!

My #1 recommendation is get a wheeled walker with brakes ASAP and insist she use it. If she has balance issues it can save her life (or her way if life). One of the biggest issues with old age is falling. My Mom fell and broke her neck. My mother in law also. Both had balance issues and thought they could get by with a cane. U won't be worrying about HD if she becomes paralyzed (or worse). Trust me you will hear "I just bent over to pick up x and then boom" in the future if u don't have a wheeled walker for her. Then you can put x gun in a holster in the walker. The threat of falling is real and very likely imo. The threat of HD is wise to prepare for but much less likely.

 

[American123]

Many semi autos also allow you to pull the trigger again on a hard primer. However, if a cartridge fails to fire in either kind the proper immediate action is to rack the slide to chamber a fresh cartridge and fire that one.

Indeed, but does the aunt have that proficiency, and in a moment of intense stress, would she?

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Show her the S&W Shield EZ.

This is exactly what I was going to suggest.

I was skeptical at first of these EZ pistols, but they really are much easier to operate for smaller/ disabled, older or weaker folks in terms of slide manipulation and ease of use.

 

[raindog]

I agree the Raven is junk...and .25ACP is may literally be the worst self-defense caliber ever.

Show her the S&W Shield EZ.

S&W 380 EZ

I was skeptical at first of these EZ pistols, but they really are much easier to operate for smaller/ disabled, older or weaker folks in terms of slide manipulation and ease of use.

The EZ line really is easier to operate. The slide is significantly easier to charge, the grippiness is very strong, and the magazines have side clips to depress the spring that make them easier to load. It's like they're designed for the senior market! I'm not quite "senior market" yet, but love my EZ. They're also hammer-fired (which I think makes the trigger better) and have a grip safety in addition to the optional thumb safety.

Can she use a FIXED BLADE KNIFE safely?

That is a horrible suggestion. For someone who is old with health issues, the idea of defending herself with a knife as a primary choice is absurd. She should not be attempting to engage in hand-to-hand combat intentionally with anyone.

Here is a different choice. Easy recoil, easy to manipulate, can hold with two hands at the hip, can use a laser to aim.

The problem with these, mossberg shockwaves, etc. is that you are 100% reliant on the laser because it's impossible to draw a sight on the target. I don't think even highly trained special forces-type people are very accurate with pistol-grip shotguns and similar. Additionally, what is that shooting - 5.56? If it was a shotgun, at least when she misses she'll just blow out the wall of her bedroom. With a missed 5.56 she could be killing someone a couple houses down.

 

[bbbass]

With a missed 5.56 she could be killing someone a couple houses down.

That's a big assumption that the only choice is military ammo. While I'm not really in favor of varmint .223 loads for shooting hostiles, they are a choice of some. But I use PSP hunting loads in my HD faux SBR, which have been recommended by many for HD use. I just have to be cautious to avoid shooting towards my wife's bedroom. Try explaining that death/injury to the investigating occifer!

Shotgun ammo is an ongoing argument. Tho buck is often the first choice, I know for a fact (from personal experience) that it will break 2x4s and still exit a building. I don't personally use bird shot in #8 size, but some say that if you are close enough it does a sickening job. I would just caution OP that 12ga has a significant recoil for most elderly. My own choice is PDX1... it's nasty stuff and reduced recoil. The 12ga is presegmented slugs, but I also use .410 PDX1 3" which has 4 copper discs and a bunch of copper bb's.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Depending on where she stores it, I wonder if a reasonably lightweight 20ga (12ga?) coach gun might fit the bill. Drop dead simple to operate that's for sure, and effective. Not an option of course if intention is for her to have firearm on her person/in walker etc all the time in the home. Just throwing out options to consider...

location of the gun/intended use also brings up the point of having a plan. having a plan of what to do if a home invasion occurs can be critical. You may have already discussed this with her of course. Perhaps make the plan of what to do and let that plan drive the choice of which firearm?

one note re a small pistol is that it can be hard to shoot accurately, and especially hard in an adrenaline-filled reactive response to a threat. Doesn't mean that is not the right choice for her, just a factor to consider.

 

[raindog]

coach gun

Love it. Is that a Stoeger?

I have read that shotguns are not promised to be drop-safe even when the safety is engaged (doesn't mean they'll go off if dropped, but they're not specifically engineered the way pistols are). Some experts recommend home defense shotguns be stored in "cruiser ready" mode (like the police do in cruisers - no shell in chamber, not on safe, locked), which is not an option with a break-open shotgun, unless it had external hammers.

 

[Siglvr]

First, thank you for taking an interest in your aunt's safety. Allow me to go in a different direction. Although I absolutely support her right to own a firearm, perhaps there might be some better considerations given all the age-related issues you describe.

Pepper spray.

Agreed! Better than pepper spray, get a Kimber Pepper Blaster 2. It's a gel so that it goes where she sprays it and if she should have to deploy it, her heating/cooling system won't fling it around the house and take her out. And if it gets taken away and used on her it's a better outcome than a firearm. Furthermore, if it is accidentally used on a girl scout going door to door, it's not as big of a deal.

When my mom got old, I picked up her old ammo and weapons....all except one 30-30 lever action that literally was 100 years old. And one bullet. One. She insisted. When she got broken into, the thief walked right past her sitting on the couch: fast asleep in front of the TV. He took what he wanted, then helped himself to an orange and peeled and ate it about 10 feet from her. Then he left.

Then we put on security bars on the sliding glass doors. Should have done that first.



Later, she fell over loading the dishwasher and broke her femur, but that's another story. The place she wound up had no stairs and a concierge at the door to check out the place and keep undesirables out. You needed a key fob to make the elevator work. Fairly secure condo.

 

[Member 34319]

Have her take her cane with her when she goes out just in case she needs it physically or for 'self defense'.

Can she use PEPPER SPRAY safely? Pepper spray meant for human self defense?

I don't know the name brands now for human beings but I have seen the bear sprays out here. My MT husband had some bear spray, it expired, but he RELIES on his firearms more than spray.

NO wasp spray - lawsuit time!

Disclaimer: I do NOT carry or use pepper spray for perps but I have considered it.

I TRUST a good FIXED BLADE knife AND (CF RIFLE - past tense for me.) a RF RIFLE more than SPRAY for various reasons which I will not go into here now.

Can she use a FIXED BLADE KNIFE safely?

Can she use a small camp axe (Estwing, etc.) or a 'hawk (Sog, etc.) in her home for self defense?

I would NOT go with a handgun due to some of the physical issues that you mentioned. NO open or conceal carry due to VARIOUS issues that you mentioned.

Can she SAFELY shoot and handle a SIMPLE 22wmr or 22lr bolt action rifle with a single shot magazine insert, 5 round or 10 round magazine? Can she LOAD the magazines or just put in ONE ROUND in?

Can she SAFELY shoot and handle a 22wmr or 22lr simple lever action rifle?

I would NOT go with red dots or scopes.

I would go with a 22wmr and 22lr BOLT ACTION RIFLE or a lever action rifle BUT only IF she can safely and accurately shoot it.

A single shot or over under or side by side shotgun in a .410 might work for her. I have considered them, like them but I have NEVER owned a shotgun.

Personally - I believe that she would be better off with HER CANE, a GOOD FIXED BLADE KNIFE - a FEW good knives in various BLADE LENGTHS, SPRAY, have a small axe and 'hawk at home.

I could give you some examples here if you want them and what worked for ME with some physical issues and at 70 years old.

I still WALK with and without a cane, SWIM, DANCE at home, take/use a cane if I should NEED IT when I am out or when I am stiff at home, carry a FIXED blade knife in various lengths - concealed or open carry depending on where I am going/traveling, have a SMALL CAMP AXE (ESTWING.) and a 'hawk (SOG.) and a few other axes too.

I have worn Rx eyeglasses since I was 5 years old and bi-focals since I was in my 40's. I am STILL a good shot with iron sights and since my MAIN REASONS for owning/shooting guns are for the RKBA issue and self defense... iron sights work for me.

I am NO longer a high volume shooter and I no longer compete.

I NO longer own, carry or shoot handguns in RF or in CF calibers too. And handguns were MY thing from the gitgo from the late 90's and on. I gave them up due to MY physical issues and I did not want to ruin my hands some more NO matter what I decided to shoot in RF or CF calibers. Plus with MY arthritis - I did NOT feel comfortable on BAD HAND DAYS to open or conceal carry so I made MY decision for me. ADDED MORE!

I don't hunt - I never did. I have gone on hunts with my MT husband on and off as an observer. Nature trips. (I like to fish.) I am no long range shooter - sniper.

I am VERY GOOD with a knife even though I DO have hand arthritis and old accident issues. I had a bad fall - landed HARD not too long ago too. Around Christmas time? My right hand still bothers me on and off too. Ugh.

CZ 457 Lux in 22wmr and 22lr are what I use. BOLT ACTION RIFLES with IRON SIGHTS!

We have the CZ SCOUT in 2 model years. Lighter weight.

We have the CZ Training rifle and the CZ 455 which I gave to my husband.

ALL of them are nice rifles.

A simple SAVAGE RASCAL bolt action - single shot 22lr is good for handicapped people and for younger/older Newbies to shoot safely too. Easy to use in a w/c too. We donated 2 of them to our range.

Rimfire | CZ-USA (cz-usa.com)

CZ 457 Lux | CZ-USA (cz-usa.com)

I consider the CZ 457 LUX in 22wmr my MAIN RIFLE for self defense with the CZ 457 LUX in 22lr as a back up one.

The CZ SCOUT is easy to handle and lighter weight - I have shot my husband's 2 Scouts.

The CZ TRAINING rifle is longer and heavier and might not be a good FIT FOR HER.

IF she wants and can SAFELY SHOOT a sweet LEVER ACTION RIFLE - I would make some more suggestions to her too. (22lr and 22wmr) I SOLD all of my beautiful, much heavier, walnut, steel, etc. lever action rifles in RF and CF and specifically went to the lighter weight in some cases - BOLT action rifles. There are some nice AND not too HEAVY lever action rifles in top brands - quality made ones.

IF your Aunt has a chance to try out some of the guns that I mentioned with YOU being by her side to see how she HANDLES them and can SEE - that might help her make a decision. I gather that this will be her HOUSE GUN? Walls of her home? Brick house? Condo? Apartment?

Best wishes to your Aunt.

Old Lady Cate

Curious if you have a reference to wasp spray and any legal proceedings?

 

[raindog]

Curious if you have a reference to wasp spray and any legal proceedings?

Wasp spray has the potential, even probability, of permanently injury. Pepper spray doesn't. Pepper spray is also well-tested on humans and the effects are predictable, which is not true of wasp spray. Wasp spray is a bad idea.

 

[Member 34319]

Wasp spray has the potential, even probability, of permanently injury. Pepper spray doesn't. Pepper spray is also well-tested on humans and the effects are predictable, which is not true of wasp spray. Wasp spray is a bad idea.

Doesn't a gunshot wound have, potential, even probability, of permanent injury?

If you have any links to lawsuits where it was used and the victim who used it got charged, I'm all ears.

 

[tkdguy]

Bear spray?

 

[raindog]

Doesn't a gunshot wound have, potential, even probability, of permanent injury?

Yes, absolutely - and I would sure rather be defending myself after pepper spraying someone than after shooting someone.

Wasp spraying someone is intentionally permanently injuring someone. Pepper spraying is not.

I'm not a lawyer, but the latter sounds like a lot more hassle/liability.

 

[revjen45]

OK, if wasp spray isn't a good idea how about carburetor or brake cleaner, or spray on oven cleaner?

Just kidding.

 

[Member 34319]

Wasp spraying someone is intentionally permanently injuring someone. Pepper spraying is not.

 

[revjen45]

I have all kinds of respect for Cate, but I must disagree as to a knife being a suitable SD tool for an old lady (or anybody else for that matter). I would regard a knife as a threat justifying a response with lethal force, but a poor choice for SD. Almost nobody has any training in using a knife as a weapon and an old lady going mano-a-mano with a man who who deck with with the 1st punch isn't likely to prevail. I studied Escrima so I have some idea how to use a knife as a weapon, but it sure wouldn't be my choice.

If confronted with an existential threat my 1st consideration would be to prevail without harm to myself. The amount of harm inflicted on the assailant is irrelevant as long as it's not egregious revenge.

 

[bbbass]

A simple internet search on use of wasp spray will return all the negative legal considerations of deploying it against a human. It's hard for me to understand people still recommending it after so many debunkings over the years/decades. Must have been in hibernation.

POM spray is only $12. And Saber gel spray is only $8.99 - $10.40. You won't be saving a few bucks by using wasp spray/Raid at $4.99 if you have to use it and then spend $10k - $50k defending yourself in a tort liability suit in court.