Looking for HD recommendations for an older family member

[ScottInPDX]

Hello All:

I'd like to lean on the community's experience for help finding a suitable home defense firearm for a much loved older aunt of mine that isn't in the greatest of health anymore. I took her to the indoor range at the Clackamas County Sheriff's office a while ago after discovering that her "home defense" weapon was a Raven MP-25. Honestly the caliber doesn't bother me because her arm strength isn't what it used to be, so the small size and light recoil is good. But the reliability is as bad as you assume it is based on the manufacturer. Her eyesight is also declining a bit, and it was difficult for her to line up the sights on a few different handguns (my apologies to CCSO for the hole in the ceiling). She walks with a cane a lot of the time, but can get around without it. She also has some balance issues so light recoil is very important. Powerful rounds that stop a bad guy in one shot are great, but I am firmly in the camp that places a higher priority on reliability, manageable recoil, and ease of handling.

The only hard requirements I would place on recommendations is they must accept a rail or sight mount so I can give her a red dot or holosight, and that it must be semi-auto. I can do the cleaning for her every now and then, I just don't want her to have to manipulate anything between shots.

Thanks for your input!

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[revjen45]

Show her the S&W Shield EZ. I am assuming that CC away from home is not a factor. Remember that the really tiny pistols are a lot harder to shoot, and that a locked breech probably has a softer recoil spring.

Of course you are aware this isn't the time to be looking for one of the most popular SD/HD models. I wish you all success.

Have you actually observed poor reliability with the Raven, or is this a conclusion based on reputation?

 

[Josh89]

a family member picked up a smith and Wesson shield ez 380. It doesn't seem to have horrible recoil to and the slide is super easy to rack back. I believe there available with fiber optic sites as well.

 

[WillametteWill]

First, thank you for taking an interest in your aunt's safety. Allow me to go in a different direction. Although I absolutely support her right to own a firearm, perhaps there might be some better considerations given all the age-related issues you describe.

Pepper spray.

As some people's visual, physical and mental faculties decline, especially if they have not been training all their lives like many of us here have, the learning curve with the defensive use of a firearm may be too steep to safely surmount. You are looking at teaching someone how to run the gun, use a red dot and/or laser along with all the basics of firearm use and then the "when" of how to use a firearm in self defense...this is not going to be an easy road. If you choose to take this road and stick with it, again, kudos to you and you should be nominated for sainthood (seriously).

You can't un-fire a gun, and pepper spray will be a deterrent without unintended lethal consequences against perhaps the wrong person. Below is a recent example that ended tragically. Sincerely, best wishes on this journey.

VICTORVILLE, CALIFORNIA, January 13, 2021 — A 91-year-old woman, who her family say was legally blind and deaf, died after being shot by police who were responding to a call that she had made.​

​

That woman, Betty Francois, who lived alone, called 911 to report that she believed an intruder was at her house. When police arrived, she came to the door and was armed with a shotgun. They told her to put the gun down, but instead she pointed it at them.​

News article

 

[User 1234]

I agree with the above. If someone has visual and perhaps cognitive issues from age a firearm might not be their best option. Most of us will make it to that point in life, and not all of us will retain the skill to use a gun competently and only in the appropriate circumstances.

 

[JohnnyMac]

(my apologies to CCSO for the hole in the ceiling)

I like @WillametteWill 's idea of pepper spray. Even the larger bear sprays pack a more powerful punch and being bigger in the hands, sometimes easier to handle. Don't have to put your arthritic finger in just the right, tiny little place to make it work. Also, what about a dog? I understand dogs aren't for everyone, but might provide some company, alert her to things that aren't right and also, I seem to recall reading an article that showed, statistically, a barking dog made intruders pause and more often than not move on to another victim's home.

Whatever you choose, good on you for helping.

As a side note....I have an S&W Bodyguard .380 and my wife has some difficulty cycling the slide. I'm not sure how old your aunt is, but my wife is in pretty good shape so I'd make sure your aunt holds and can physically manage everything that goes with whatever firearm you choose before she places it into service.

 

[Member 34319]

that it must be semi-auto. I can do the cleaning for her every now and then, I just don't want her to have to manipulate anything between shots.

Would she be able to clear a malfunction?

I recommend bear or wasp spray. Stuff sprays in a stream some 10-20 feet long. Easy to use.

If it has to be a firearm, an LCRx in 22mag.

 

[AMT]

Ruger SR22. Any would-be "bad guy" that hears the bang and realizes they aren't on the floor bleeding out will turn and RUN!

They come with a rail to mount a light or red dot.

My wife doesn't have very strong hands either and can easily use it.

My $0.02.

 

[bbbass]

As some people's visual, physical and mental faculties decline,

I agree with the above. If someone has visual and perhaps cognitive issues from age a firearm might not be their best option. Most of us will make it to that point in life, and not all of us will retain the skill to use a gun competently and only in the appropriate circumstances.

My wife is 79 this year. She has bad arthritis in her hands/wrist, but worse is that she has "cognitive impairment" which is a PC neurologist term for increasing levels of dementia. So even tho she still has a valid carry permit, she takes pepper spray on her walks now instead of her .357 or her .380 pocket rocket. I also put away the handgun that she kept next to her in a pocket on the couch and in the bedroom drawer. It's not so bad that I have to put all the guns away, yet. But someday it will come to that.

In the case of the OP's aunt, it sounds like she has some physical impairment of balance, but I didn't read any thing about cognitive issues (except for the hole in the ceiling sounds suspicious of ability to safely handle a firearm. We had an older gent and an older lady that we had to ban from IDPA.). Otherwise, IMO, if she can still safely handle a firearm, she should be able to have one. Only those two know for sure.

 

[jbett98]

Having her accidentally shoot a hole in the roof of the gun range sure waves a red flag on her ability to handle a firearm safely.

 

[bbbass]

Having her accidentally shoot a hole in the roof of the gun range sure waves a red flag on her ability to handle a firearm safely.

It does. But we weren't there. Maybe OP can explain further why he doesn't seem to think it's a red flag???

 

[Certaindeaf]

So you didn't let her shoot any of your guns? I'd get her a 4" K-frame S&W .38 because beggars.

 

[Pizza Bob]

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people that recommend a revolver for this application. Lets give our elderly relatives or people we care about a firearm with a 9 - 11 pound trigger pull. And don't say use it in single action - that is a recipe for disaster - just an accident looking for a place to happen. And a red dot? There is a big learning curve to being able to use a red dot effectively and not one an elderly aunt is likely to master.

If it hadn't been for your comment about the hole in the ceiling, I would have gone along with those that recommended the S&W EZ or like firearm - just point & shoot. But she has already demonstrated that she cannot safely handle a firearm and it won't get better as she gets older. Go with the pepper or bear spray or some other non-lethal method. Maybe a hand-held taser.

Just my $.02

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[ScottInPDX]

Some good points have been made here, and considering something like mace or bear spray is a good alternative that I hadn't considered. I also understand the concerns about her ability to handle it safely, especially considering the "hole in the ceiling."

That being said, I do want to reassure everyone here that I don't intend to just hand her a weapon and walk away. I believe the single ceiling shot was a combination of her not being able to line up the sights very well and a heavy trigger pull on my S&W 19-2. I want to provide her with a red dot to alleviate the sight alignment difficulties and put it on a weapon with a much lighter trigger pull.

This thread is meant as a starting point for me, not the end. I plan to evaluate some recommendations here and borrow or buy what I can, take her to a range, and try some things out. If nothing seems like a good and safe fit, then I'll talk to her about non-firearm alternatives. She's in her mid-sixties and shows no sign of mental decline, only physical. I think she could still get many years of safe use out of the right firearm.

Believe me, I would not be able to live with myself if she injured or killed herself or someone else using a firearm I gave her. I will not leave a weapon with her if she cannot demonstrate the ability to safely handle and employ it.

 

[Caveman Jim]

First, thank you for taking an interest in your aunt's safety. Allow me to go in a different direction. Although I absolutely support her right to own a firearm, perhaps there might be some better considerations given all the age-related issues you describe.

Pepper spray.

As some people's visual, physical and mental faculties decline, especially if they have not been training all their lives like many of us here have, the learning curve with the defensive use of a firearm may be too steep to safely surmount. You are looking at teaching someone how to run the gun, use a red dot and/or laser along with all the basics of firearm use and then the "when" of how to use a firearm in self defense...this is not going to be an easy road. If you choose to take this road and stick with it, again, kudos to you and you should be nominated for sainthood (seriously).

You can't un-fire a gun, and pepper spray will be a deterrent without unintended lethal consequences against perhaps the wrong person. Below is a recent example that ended tragically. Sincerely, best wishes on this journey.

VICTORVILLE, CALIFORNIA, January 13, 2021 — A 91-year-old woman, who her family say was legally blind and deaf, died after being shot by police who were responding to a call that she had made.​

​

That woman, Betty Francois, who lived alone, called 911 to report that she believed an intruder was at her house. When police arrived, she came to the door and was armed with a shotgun. They told her to put the gun down, but instead she pointed it at them.​

News article

This right here also is my recommendation for your aunt with limited abilities. My dad was a former military SF & GB badass but at 70 with his disabilities could not even rack the slide on his 1911.

That article is very concerning to me because in 10 to 15 years I will probably be legally blind and I am very hard of hearing already. I've thought long and hard about this exact scenario and am still not looking forward to it. I'm following the family curses of hearing loss and macular degeneration to a T...

It's very sad that this happened to Betty and others in this same situation, I pray for their families. It's like LE dealing with the mentality ill, they don't know the situation and mostly act in one way only if their commands are not followed with lethal force.

I cannot begin to contemplate of what it takes to be a LEO, especially nowadays with the anti-cop, anti-American current events in our nation, it's got to be very complicated but dayummm.

 

[bbbass]

That article is very concerning to me because in 10 to 15 years I will probably be legally blind and I am very hard of hearing already. I've thought long and hard about this exact scenario and am still not looking forward to it. I'm following the family curses of hearing loss and macular degeneration to a T...

I'm getting there also Caveman! Diabetes and a bad steroid shot ruined so much of the vision in my dominant eye that I had to switch over to the left eye for pistol shooting, and no longer shoot ARs and hunting rifles. So I gave away my varmint AR, and when my kids and grandkids come to visit in early April, I'm giving my .308 to a grandson, and a Mossberg 500 to another grandson. I've given away two 2011s, and someday will probably give my Glock 34 to my granddaughter.

I'm also losing short term memory. So there's that worry. But my mom is sharp as a tack at 95. I guess I got my dad's genes instead of moms.

 

[ScottInPDX]

Have you actually observed poor reliability with the Raven, or is this a conclusion based on reputation?

The biggest problem I had with it was that it's the slide-lock safety model, but the safety doesn't have much of a detent or discernible locked position. It's just kind of a piece of sheet metal that slides freely back and forth. Forward is fire, rear is safe, and every two or three shots, it works itself back into the safe position. I suppose you could have a gunsmith give it a proper detent or just train yourself to reset it frequently, but I still think it's fair to call it an unreliable design.

The safety slide also slips into the fire position more easily than it should.

To its credit, I don't recall any misfires or feed failures in about a hundred rounds, and it is more accurate than it has any right to be. But I still wouldn't ever use or recommend it for use as anything but a range toy.

 

[ScottInPDX]

It does. But we weren't there. Maybe OP can explain further why he doesn't seem to think it's a red flag???

@jbett98

It definitely is a red flag. But I don't think "red flag" necessarily means it's prohibitive until the root cause is understood.

Did it happen because her balance is reduced so much that she cannot hold any firearm steady enough to hit a target? Then yeah, a firearm is a bad choice for her.

Or did it happen because the S&W 19-2 she was shooting has faded sights that were very difficult for her eyes to line up and has a heavy double action trigger pull? We can work with those and possibly find a suitable alternative.

As I mentioned a few comments back, the concerns people are bringing up are well-founded, and I appreciate them being brought up to ensure safety remains a top priority. I won't leave my aunt with any firearms until those red flags are lowered.

 

[Geardo]

Does it have to be a pistol?

My vote from personal experience with an older family member would be a well broken in and polished ruger 10/22 with bx25 magazine filled with round nose CCI stingers.

Aimpoint micro or chinesium equivilant on top.

Upgrade the bolt catch, charging handle, and magazine catch to make it easier for her to use.

 

[bbbass]

Or did it happen because the S&W 19-2 she was shooting has faded sights that were very difficult for her eyes to line up and has a heavy double action trigger pull? We can work with those and possibly find a suitable alternative.

I'm still not understanding how difficulty lining up sights translates to a hole in the ceiling. It's just not adequately explained. No pun intended, but I can't picture it. I'm wondering how pointing the gun at any overhead in front of the table constitutes lining up the sights. Was this an indoor range; was it right in front of the table; or was it further downrange right near the target; is there a much worse eyesight problem than not being able to see sights; just wave and shoot? Not hassling you, I'm just trying to understand something that you brought up. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt because we aren't there to see what the conditions are (and maybe it's just a communication difficulty)... but

Cooper safety rule #3 applies:
3. Keep your finger off the trigger (and outside the trigger guard) till your sights are on the target

FWIW I'm an IDPA SO/RO for matches and failure to keep finger off trigger or an AD/ND will get one disqualified from the match. Repeated violations will get a shooter permanently banned. AFAIK most ranges that have Range Officers have the same rules.

Just sayin...