Looking for HD recommendations for an older family member

[raindog]

You disagree? If so, how?

 

[Member 34319]

You disagree? If so, how?

Any use of force to defend oneself is, by definition, the act of intentionally causing permanent or non permanent injuring and or death to a person. No matter what tool is used. Wasp spray, bear spray, a knife, a bat, large stick, firearms, a fist, coat hanger, coffee mug, etc etc.

Stating one is less legal or may cause lawsuits is the same line of thinking that an AR15 is more deadly than a bolt action 22lr.

 

[Flopsweat]

Any use of force to defend oneself is, by definition, the act of intentionally causing permanent or non permanent injuring and or death to a person. No matter what tool is used. Wasp spray, bear spray, a knife, a bat, large stick, firearms, a fist, coat hanger, coffee mug, etc etc.

Stating one is less legal or may cause lawsuits is the same line of thinking that an AR15 is more deadly than a bolt action 22lr.

Also, pepper spray has led to falls resulting in serious injury, heart attacks in people with cardiovascular issues, and I seem to recall something about a stroke.

 

[titsonritz]

 

[Member 34319]

Thanks @titsonritz that's what I was looking for.

Still doesn't mean you won't be sued regardless, but hey, at least know there is a precedence via an actual lawyer.

 

[Member 34319]

I'll say one thing about this, as I'm still not convinced it matters, this type of thinking is dangerous.

This lawyer is obviously pro self defense, yet the fact that one must now think, "hmmm is my tool that I'm about to use to defend my life with going to implicate myself in any way?"

Crazy we live in a time where using a tool to defend yourself can be picked apart by a lawyer, judge and or jury in a way to protect the criminal and turn the victim into a criminal.

One should be able to use whatever they wish to defend themselves when in fear of losing ones life.

Next, if this thinking is allowed to grow and thrive, they will be saying that you used a gun to protect your life. Clearly that's not needed as that is intended to kill a person, this criminal only wanted to take your money and had no intention of harming you.

Oh wait, that type of thing is already occurring.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

What type of pepper spray do you guys think is best? I saw this video on the Gel and it seems like the gel has a delayed effectiveness compared to stream or spray. Not sure if that's because it isn't breathed in or what.

 

[raindog]

Any use of force to defend oneself is, by definition, the act of intentionally causing permanent or non permanent injuring and or death to a person. No matter what tool is used. Wasp spray, bear spray, a knife, a bat, large stick, firearms, a fist, coat hanger, coffee mug, etc etc.

Stating one is less legal or may cause lawsuits is the same line of thinking that an AR15 is more deadly than a bolt action 22lr.

Well, either we just fundamentally disagree (which is cool) or I'm not making my point clear.

If I pepper spray someone, my attorney can say that this form of defense is carried daily by millions of Americans and is generally considered non-lethal and non-damaging. Everyone on the jury will know what pepper spray is long before they entered the courtroom.

If I carry wasp spray, I have a weapon which is uncommon and is known to cause permanent injury. It makes me sound like a psycho. I have no way of saying I was not intending to cause permanent injury because that's what wasp spray does. Even worse, wasp spray is an unknown - it may work to stop an immediately stop attack, or it may not. Pepper spray is a very known quantity.

There is absolutely no reason or advantage to carrying wasp spray over pepper spray.

 

[Member 34319]

Well, either we just fundamentally disagree (which is cool) or I'm not making my point clear.

If I pepper spray someone, my attorney can say that this form of defense is carried daily by millions of Americans and is generally considered non-lethal and non-damaging. Everyone on the jury will know what pepper spray is long before they entered the courtroom.

If I carry wasp spray, I have a weapon which is uncommon and is known to cause permanent injury. It makes me sound like a psycho. I have no way of saying I was not intending to cause permanent injury because that's what wasp spray does. Even worse, wasp spray is an unknown - it may work to stop an immediately stop attack, or it may not. Pepper spray is a very known quantity.

There is absolutely no reason or advantage to carrying wasp spray over pepper spray.

I agree. Of the two pepper spray likely works better.

I am not staying one should carry a can of wasp spray with them everywhere. Just stating it could be used in a defensive situation.

Wasp spray shots a stream some 30 feet, is easy to use, and fairly common at most stores. Chances are, you may already have this in your house as it is.

My main issue is stating that this can not be used in defense. That using it may mean you are now a criminal, or may be considered a psycho. That type of thinking, in my opinion, is the same type of thinking as those that say one gun is less deadly than the other, therefore should be used before the other. Or that no one needs an AR15 because they are made only to kill.

Example. Well grandma used a pair of scissors to defend herself, not a knife made specifically for such a thing. Clearly a psychopath!

Example # 2. Hold on grandma, let me check the list of items approved too use in the defense of your life...

Use what you can and or have. If you feel you need something better, get that.

More importantly, pray you never have to.

 

[bbbass]

What type of pepper spray do you guys think is best? I saw this video on the Gel and it seems like the gel has a delayed effectiveness compared to stream or spray. Not sure if that's because it isn't breathed in or what.

My wife and I both carry POM stream spray... she on her walks and I EDC. It streams 12-25ft (most deployments I have seen on vid have been at 3-7') and can be accurately directed into the eyes/nose/mouth of any attacker, 2 legged or 4 legged. We don't have it ready in the house because we have 125.3 firearms close at hand to defend us there.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I agree the Raven is junk...and .25ACP is may literally be the worst self-defense caliber ever.





The EZ line really is easier to operate. The slide is significantly easier to charge, the grippiness is very strong, and the magazines have side clips to depress the spring that make them easier to load. It's like they're designed for the senior market! I'm not quite "senior market" yet, but love my EZ. They're also hammer-fired and have a grip safety in addition to the optional thumb safety.



That is a horrible suggestion. For someone who is old with health issues, the idea of defending herself with a knife as a primary choice is absurd. She should not be attempting to engage in hand-to-hand combat intentionally with anyone.



The problem with these, mossberg shockwaves, etc. is that you are 100% reliant on the laser because it's impossible to draw a sight on the target. I don't think even highly trained special forces-type people are very accurate with pistol-grip shotguns and similar. Additionally, what is that shooting - 5.56? If it was a shotgun, at least when she misses she'll just blow out the wall of her bedroom. With a missed 5.56 she could be killing someone a couple houses down.

Well, either we just fundamentally disagree (which is cool) or I'm not making my point clear.

If I pepper spray someone, my attorney can say that this form of defense is carried daily by millions of Americans and is generally considered non-lethal and non-damaging. Everyone on the jury will know what pepper spray is long before they entered the courtroom.

If I carry wasp spray, I have a weapon which is uncommon and is known to cause permanent injury. It makes me sound like a psycho. I have no way of saying I was not intending to cause permanent injury because that's what wasp spray does. Even worse, wasp spray is an unknown - it may work to stop an immediately stop attack, or it may not. Pepper spray is a very known quantity.

There is absolutely no reason or advantage to carrying wasp spray over pepper spray.

I think saiga308 fills his hollow points with bug spray.








not really

 

[bbbass]

Wasp spray may not be used except as directed on the label. It is against Federal law, if anyone cares. Charges could be brought for any off-label use, another reason users will lose in court against a criminal. I didn't think NWFA members were that stupid.

 

[raindog]

My main issue is stating that this can not be used in defense. That using it may mean you are now a criminal, or may be considered a psycho.

OK, I agree with this. If it was the only thing at hand against a charging criminal, sure - ditto for a weedwacker, chainsaw, or flare gun.

I was thinking of the idea of walking around carrying wasp spray as a defense weapon, which I think is ill-advised.

 

[WillametteWill]

Appreciate the slight sidebar to discuss alternate forms of defense including bear spray / wasp spray. Good, thought provoking comments for us to consider along with the video. Allow me to share another perspective. I've filed hundreds of cases with Deputy District Attorneys, worked with many directly and assisted in the prosecution of numerous cases as well. (With of course the non-legal advice, just a guy on the internet perspective.)

We have to consider the level of justified force. The reason we are using the particular instrument is also important (i.e., did we grab it because it was available or am I packing oven cleaner). For me, if I'm facing an immediate, deadly force threat to my life, I'm good with being Colonel Mustard, in the study, swinging a candlestick to stop the threat. But I think it is important to realize every threat does not justify deadly force, or force above pepper spray. Bear spray, wasp spray, oven cleaner...all of these rise above OC, or chemical agents that are intended to be used in defense.

IMHO (along with experience on how it works with DA's and juries) problems will arise in the grey areas, where some level of force is justified but how much could be in debate. Laws vary by state obviously, but using oven cleaner / wasp spray / etc. in a non-deadly force case my be considered assault with a caustic chemical and worse than the assault against you. You very likely will have a harder time justifying preparing to use non-standard items in defense if a lawful and accepted item is in use. You might get away with using something that was handy...might.

Going back to the OP, again humbly, considering standard defense tools of the non-lethal kind might be a good option.

 

[Flopsweat]

Appreciate the slight sidebar to discuss alternate forms of defense including bear spray / wasp spray. Good, thought provoking comments for us to consider along with the video. Allow me to share another perspective. I've filed hundreds of cases with Deputy District Attorneys, worked with many directly and assisted in the prosecution of numerous cases as well. (With of course the non-legal advice, just a guy on the internet perspective.)

We have to consider the level of justified force. The reason we are using the particular instrument is also important (i.e., did we grab it because it was available or am I packing oven cleaner). For me, if I'm facing an immediate, deadly force threat to my life, I'm good with being Colonel Mustard, in the study, swinging a candlestick to stop the threat. But I think it is important to realize every threat does not justify deadly force, or force above pepper spray. Bear spray, wasp spray, oven cleaner...all of these rise above OC, or chemical agents that are intended to be used in defense.

IMHO (along with experience on how it works with DA's and juries) problems will arise in the grey areas, where some level of force is justified but how much could be in debate. Laws vary by state obviously, but using oven cleaner / wasp spray / etc. in a non-deadly force case my be considered assault with a caustic chemical and worse than the assault against you. You very likely will have a harder time justifying preparing to use non-standard items in defense if a lawful and accepted item is in use. You might get away with using something that was handy...might.

Going back to the OP, again humbly, considering standard defense tools of the non-lethal kind might be a good option.

So not a good idea to carry wasp spray for self-defense, but in a jam anything that's as close to proportional as you can get should be OK. If someone is beating my neighbor with a bat and the nearest thing I can find is a rock, I'll probably be in the clear. Is that about right?

 

[clearconscience]

I would go against a gun.

what about a camera system for the outside access points, even hook it up to yours or another family members phone so they can keep an eye on her?

Also just doing a good security check of her house. Locks, vision, door reinforcement?

 

[titsonritz]

Depending on where she stores it, I wonder if a reasonably lightweight 20ga (12ga?) coach gun might fit the bill. Drop dead simple to operate that's for sure, and effective. Not an option of course if intention is for her to have firearm on her person/in walker etc all the time in the home. Just throwing out options to consider...

location of the gun/intended use also brings up the point of having a plan. having a plan of what to do if a home invasion occurs can be critical. You may have already discussed this with her of course. Perhaps make the plan of what to do and let that plan drive the choice of which firearm?

one note re a small pistol is that it can be hard to shoot accurately, and especially hard in an adrenaline-filled reactive response to a threat. Doesn't mean that is not the right choice for her, just a factor to consider.
View attachment 844489

That's just what Granny needs, Joe.

 

[titsonritz]

I would go against a gun.

Maybe I missed something, but why would say that? Cameras and locked windows are a giving as they are a perimeter but when push comes to shove they don't stop scumbags ready to do harm like a firearm. Guns are the great equalizer, pretty much one the few ways a single mom of 102lbs or a little old lady has any say in the matter againts a 250lbs dope head let alone more than one.

 

[Starbucket]

Get her a can of Inferno.
Inferno Pepper Spray from Cold Steel Efrain - Bing video
AN intruder will wish she had a gun instead.

 

[dream45]

I would add to the pepper spray strategy by assessing her home security. Beef up the exterior/interior locks, panic alarm, fire extinguisher. Outdoor lights, build relationships with neighbors. Make her a undesirable target.

I want the use of a firearm to be the last option. Even if success use of a fire arm has traumatic consequences. Would she be able to handle the emotional weight of harming someone? As she ages, the mind can build irrational memories of people and the threat they represent. There comes a time when firearms become a bad primary strategy.

I am glad she has you looking out for her and I am sure the right tactics will present themselves.