Let's talk Non-Lethal

[cHaOsReX]

Who has experience with non-lethal options?

• Pepper Spray
• Pepper Gel
• Pepper Foam
• Taser
• Stun Gun
• Other

Most of us who who carry a firearm also carry a knife of some type. Some of us feel that because we carry a firearm we cannot engage in a physical confrontation because if an opponent discovered the firearms things can escalate. I am in that camp. I'd much rather blast someone in the face with pepper gel (or some other option) than pull a knife or get into a fist fight while I'm carrying. But I'm not very versed on the options available. So who has experience with what is out there now. What are your thoughts on the options out there and their use case?

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[mkwerx]

Used to carry pepper spray at work another lifetime ago. It can be very effective but can also be a pain for the user as well. I already have enough crap on my belt and in my pockets I choose to forego it. I have some hand to hand skills, verbal deescalation training, and could press some of the tools I carry into use as non lethal weapons if need be.

I carry a utility knife, I don't see a folder being of great use in a typical fight unless its a first strike option with time to deploy it. Fixed blades are for fighting, folders are for box killing. Not saying I would not use it if a situation called for it and I *could* deploy it, but its not as easy to get into the fight as a fixed blade.

Back to topic - when I carried spray I liked First Defense stuff. It was nasty enough for me, getting hit with spray sucks arse. If you carry spray, its a good idea to try it out on yourself to see how you react, and to try fighting thru getting hit by it. Its the only defensive weapon I would say that applies to, due to the nature of the beast. I prefer spray vs gel, and totally do not like fog. Pepper fog seems to be a tool for a masochist rather than someone trying to stop someone else

 

[Bushman]

Who has experience with non-lethal options?

• Pepper Spray
• Pepper Gel
• Pepper Foam
• Taser
• Stun Gun
• Other

Most of us who who carry a firearm also carry a knife of some type. Some of us feel that because we carry a firearm we cannot engage in a physical confrontation because if an opponent discovered the firearms things can escalate. I am in that camp. I'd much rather blast someone in the face with pepper gel (or some other option) than pull a knife or get into a fist fight while I'm carrying. But I'm not very versed on the options available. So who has experience with what is out there now. What are your thoughts on the options out there and their use case?

My buddy and I pepper sprayed each other with one of the top pepper sprays out there. IT IS EFFECTIVE.....It is the most important thing I carry and the item I am most likely to use.

It will also look much better in court if you tried a non lethal option first. But I suspect you will likely never end up there as pepper spray is pretty dang effective IME and the use of it is not as serious as say, shooting someone....

 

[cHaOsReX]

My buddy and I pepper sprayed each other with one of the top pepper sprays out there. IT IS EFFECTIVE.....It is the most important thing I carry and the item I am most likely to use.

It will also look much better in court if you tried a non lethal option first. But I suspect you will likely never end up there as pepper spray is pretty dang effective IME.

So what did you use? Brand, product, etc.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Time to try the wave

 

[Bushman]

So what did you use? Brand, product, etc.

Sabre Red.

 

[cHaOsReX]

I prefer spray vs gel, and totally do not like fog. Pepper fog seems to be a tool for a masochist rather than someone trying to stop someone else

Why spray vs. gel?

 

[KKG]

Well, mkwerx covered the subject Pretty much. I too have carried Mace and the original Stun Gun which can be seen in use by Steve McQueen in the movie "Hunter". It was a Bean Bag CO2 powdered Gun. The Bag of Beans weights a full pound and I've never seen anyone who was hit who had ANY interest in continuing the conversation. They could also be loaded with other things. They worked too good and I'm sure that's why they are Museum Pieces. I Carry a box cutter sometimes called a pocket knife. I have no plan to use it but could if nothing else is available.

 

[Alexx1401]

Who has experience with non-lethal options?

• Pepper Spray
• Pepper Gel
• Pepper Foam
• Taser
• Stun Gun
• Other

Most of us who who carry a firearm also carry a knife of some type. Some of us feel that because we carry a firearm we cannot engage in a physical confrontation because if an opponent discovered the firearms things can escalate. I am in that camp. I'd much rather blast someone in the face with pepper gel (or some other option) than pull a knife or get into a fist fight while I'm carrying. But I'm not very versed on the options available. So who has experience with what is out there now. What are your thoughts on the options out there and their use case?

OC (pepper) has it's use. Have always gone for the one that uses a good stream since it may be used outside. It seems to really shine on dogs. I have used it many times for this. Have small dogs and am not willing to let larger dogs make a meal out of one. Also do not want to hurt the other dog since it's not their fault the owner is an asshat for letting them run free. OC has always done wonders to run one off.
Now on humans? It also can often work very well. I have seen a few get enraged by the stuff and almost seem to be nothing but pissed off. Still can't hurt to try. If nothing else it will make it harder for them to see what they are fighting.
Taser to me is one of the best tools LE ever got. If used right they are amazing in what they can take down. Of course downside is they are a little larger than OC. Price has come WAY down too of course but still far more expensive than OC too.

 

[No_Regerts]

Who has experience with non-lethal options?

• Pepper Spray
• Pepper Gel
• Pepper Foam
• Taser
• Stun Gun
• Other

I'm an instructor for less lethal. Pepper spray has the highest likelihood of having SOME sort of an effect, but it takes a while to set in and doesn't incapacitate. It gives you enough time to move and use the distraction to egress or attack. Careful on the attack part.

Gel and foam are real neat until someone wipes it off and slings it back at you. Seent it several times. Pretty good on animals and there is a little less splash back.

Tasers will incapacitate if you get two prongs in the guy with enough space between them to get a good neuromuscular interference. If you get one dart, you can charge forward and contact the badguy to close the circuit. THEN WHAT? If you don't carry cuffs, you better run. It only lasts so long and then he's right back in the fight. Every push of the trigger is its own use of force.

Stun guns just make people jerk away and yell at you. Nothing like the movies.

Just remember, pulling any of that stuff on some is justification for them to use deadly force. Same goes if anyone pulls any of it on you. Be sure you HAVE to use it before you do.

 

[L84Cabo]

I'm a fan of anything that saves you from having to shoot somebody. There is, however, a logistical issue here in that you can only carry so much on your person. I do, however, have a can of pepper spray in the car. With road rage incidents on the rise, it's nice to have a less lethal option in the center console. I like Fox Labs for pepper spray.

 

[Alexx1401]

I'm an instructor for less lethal. Pepper spray has the highest likelihood of having SOME sort of an effect, but it takes a while to set in and doesn't incapacitate. It gives you enough time to move and use the distraction to egress or attack. Careful on the attack part.

Gel and foam are real neat until someone wipes it off and slings it back at you. Seent it several times. Pretty good on animals and there is a little less splash back.

Tasers will incapacitate if you get two prongs in the guy with enough space between them to get a good neuromuscular interference. If you get one dart, you can charge forward and contact the badguy to close the circuit. THEN WHAT? If you don't carry cuffs, you better run. It only lasts so long and then he's right back in the fight. Every push of the trigger is its own use of force.

Stun guns just make people jerk away and yell at you. Nothing like the movies.

Just remember, pulling any of that stuff on some is justification for them to use deadly force. Same goes if anyone pulls any of it on you. Be sure you HAVE to use it before you do.

I still have one of those stun batons around here somewhere. Bought it decades ago when I was working for a guy who owned some large Hotels in a sketchy part of town. Now and then some drunk would try to take up residence in some corner unseen for a while. Some would refuse to "wake up" when told. I bought one of these to try and man did it work. Touch it to a leg and they were suddenly wide awake, cussing at me, but up and moving along. Of course now days someone would be bound to get it on tape if you did this and make a huge deal out of how you treated the poor put upon bum When I bought it I tried touching it to my leg to see if it worked. It felt to me like touching a spark plug on a running engine. Not a good defensive weapon but sure as hell was great at getting some drunk to get up and go sleep elsewhere.

 

[No_Regerts]

I still have one of those stun batons around here somewhere. Bought it decades ago when I was working for a guy who owned some large Hotels in a sketchy part of town. Now and then some drunk would try to take up residence in some corner unseen for a while. Some would refuse to "wake up" when told. I bought one of these to try and man did it work. Touch it to a leg and they were suddenly wide awake, cussing at me, but up and moving along. Of course now days someone would be bound to get it on tape if you did this and make a huge deal out of how you treated the poor put upon bum When I bought it I tried touching it to my leg to see if it worked. It felt to me like touching a spark plug on a running engine. Not a good defensive weapon but sure as hell was great at getting some drunk to get up and go sleep elsewhere.

It cracks me up in movies when someone goes unconscious after getting zapped by a handheld stun gun.

 

[Alexx1401]

It cracks me up in movies when someone goes unconscious after getting zapped by a handheld stun gun.

Hollywood has been great at making people believe crap
For decades I had people swear that a hit from a large caliber would knock someone across a room. Many were so convinced they would swear they saw it while fighting. Until I would prove to them it does not and can not happen. Often they would stand there shocked. They had seen it in movies for so long they really could not believe it was not true.
Now I have seen scenes where they use one of shock those things on some poor guy tied up on his neck. Sure as hell don't want to try it but that may scatter you for a while alright.

 

[Stomper]

I carry a Glock, an assisted opening knife clipped in my strong-side front pocket, a telescoping baton that looks like a flashlight in a belt holster, and wear safety-toe Danner "Quarry" boots... then there's the fact that I'm 6', 207lbs, usually carrying a 50lbs tool bag over my shoulder, look pissed-off half the time (my natural expression), and still have a loud Drill Sgt voice.... I don't get it, nobody ever seems to want to play with me!




"The look" is your first line of deterrence, a loud/strong voice and "command presence" often de-escalates a situation, an arch-stomp or punch to the nose will dissuade 99% of aggressors, striking weapons to major muscles or wrist joints, a knife to slice a tendon or just bleed a MoFo will freek-out just about anyone, failing that pop corks into their chest until they stop...

Your main weapon is your mind, and having a prepared mindset to employ only what's needed, when it's needed. Actually killing someone is the last thing you want to carry around with you, justified or not.


The main thing is to look like you're (and preferably ARE) more trouble than it's worth. Don't look like "food", and you won't get "eaten".


Now I'm starting to sound like a cheesy Karate' instructor.....

 

[IronMonster]

I carry a Glock, an assisted opening knife clipped in my strong-side front pocket, a telescoping baton that looks like a flashlight in a belt holster, and wear safety-toe Danner "Quarry" boots... then there's the fact that I'm 6', 207lbs, usually carrying a 50lbs tool bag over my shoulder, look pissed-off half the time (my natural expression), and still have a loud Drill Sgt voice.... I don't get it, nobody ever seems to want to play with me!




"The look" is your first line of deterrence, a loud/strong voice and "command presence" often de-escalates a situation, an arch-stomp or punch to the nose will dissuade 99% of aggressors, striking weapons to major muscles or wrist joints, a knife to slice a tendon or just bleed a MoFo will freek-out just about anyone, failing that pop corks into their chest until they stop...

Your main weapon is your mind, and having a prepared mindset to employ only what's needed, when it's needed. Actually killing someone is the last thing you want to carry around with you, justified or not.


The main thing is to look like you're (and preferably ARE) more trouble than it's worth. Don't look like "food", and you won't get "eaten".


Now I'm starting to sound like a cheesy Karate' instructor.....

I agree, I have never had much trouble in being a target. There is the chance that you are a specific target and then that stuff goes out the window.

As far as non-lethal I have no need. I am either in fear for my life or I am not. Its black and white. If I fear for my life I can use any means available to stop the threat. If I am not in fear for my life there should be no reason to engage with any weapon.

Cops are another matter, They have "situations" which warrant a weapon but not a bullet. I am not in a position to need compliance from an assailant that I cant neutralize with deadly force. If they attack, I am in fear for my life. If they don't, I have no need of any weapon.
End of story

 

[No_Regerts]

I agree, I have never had much trouble in being a target. There is the chance that you are a specific target and then that stuff goes out the window.

As far as non-lethal I have no need. I am either in fear for my life or I am not. Its black and white. If I fear for my life I can use any means available to stop the threat. If I am not in fear for my life there should be no reason to engage with any weapon.

Cops are another matter, They have "situations" which warrant a weapon but not a bullet. I am not in a position to need compliance from an assailant that I cant neutralize with deadly force. If they attack, I am in fear for my life. If they don't, I have no need of any weapon.
End of story

 

[Sgt Nambu]

We have Red Saber pepper gel in both vehicles and a bear spray by the front door of the house! I also keep an Asp, Tonya Knocker in my truck. I used to carry it on my person but not for a while now. Less lethal is definitely better than shooting some deserving sad sack, unless I'm put in official charge of sad sacks!

 

[Stomper]

 

[Medic!]

I carry a Glock, an assisted opening knife clipped in my strong-side front pocket, a telescoping baton that looks like a flashlight in a belt holster, and wear safety-toe Danner "Quarry" boots... then there's the fact that I'm 6', 207lbs, usually carrying a 50lbs tool bag over my shoulder, look pissed-off half the time (my natural expression), and still have a loud Drill Sgt voice.... I don't get it, nobody ever seems to want to play with me!




"The look" is your first line of deterrence, a loud/strong voice and "command presence" often de-escalates a situation, an arch-stomp or punch to the nose will dissuade 99% of aggressors, striking weapons to major muscles or wrist joints, a knife to slice a tendon or just bleed a MoFo will freek-out just about anyone, failing that pop corks into their chest until they stop...

Your main weapon is your mind, and having a prepared mindset to employ only what's needed, when it's needed. Actually killing someone is the last thing you want to carry around with you, justified or not.


The main thing is to look like you're (and preferably ARE) more trouble than it's worth. Don't look like "food", and you won't get "eaten".


Now I'm starting to sound like a cheesy Karate' instructor.....

You think people stay clear of you?

As you can see by my chair. I'm a giant.
And my dog,who's always with me. Is the size of a Grizz.