Let's talk Non-Lethal

[titsonritz]

Answering lethal force with non-lethal force is an incorrect answer.

 

[zenmonger]

I'm an instructor for less lethal. Pepper spray has the highest likelihood of having SOME sort of an effect, but it takes a while to set in and doesn't incapacitate. It gives you enough time to move and use the distraction to egress or attack. Careful on the attack part.

Gel and foam are real neat until someone wipes it off and slings it back at you. Seent it several times. Pretty good on animals and there is a little less splash back.

Tasers will incapacitate if you get two prongs in the guy with enough space between them to get a good neuromuscular interference. If you get one dart, you can charge forward and contact the badguy to close the circuit. THEN WHAT? If you don't carry cuffs, you better run. It only lasts so long and then he's right back in the fight. Every push of the trigger is its own use of force.

Stun guns just make people jerk away and yell at you. Nothing like the movies.

Just remember, pulling any of that stuff on some is justification for them to use deadly force. Same goes if anyone pulls any of it on you. Be sure you HAVE to use it before you do.

I agree. ALL non-lethal weapons only deter, and that only temporarily. None of them will be much use against an attacker who is enraged, or hyped on adrenaline or drugs. It just might make them even angrier. Whether non-lethal or firearm, ideally the bad guy will not see mine until after they feel it.

 

[caarecengi]

My buddy and I pepper sprayed each other with one of the top pepper sprays out there. IT IS EFFECTIVE.....It is the most important thing I carry and the item I am most likely to use.

It will also look much better in court if you tried a non lethal option first. But I suspect you will likely never end up there as pepper spray is pretty dang effective IME and the use of it is not as serious as say, shooting someone....

When this 4-Nov Antifa threat was purportedly happening, I grabbed a half-dozen cans or hornet/wasp spray - it shoots a 15-20 ft stream (aim for the eye/mouth) - and the best part is, LEOs cannot construe it to be a concealed weapon. I gave a can to each of my daughters also (large purses are in vogue) and we practiced with one of the full cans.

 

[No_Regerts]

When this 4-Nov Antifa threat was purportedly happening, I grabbed a half-dozen cans or hornet/wasp spray - it shoots a 15-20 ft stream (aim for the eye/mouth) - and the best part is, LEOs cannot construe it to be a concealed weapon. I gave a can to each of my daughters also (large purses are in vogue) and we practiced with one of the full cans.

You want to be careful using products that are not made for use against humans. If you can't articulate that you had to use any and all means to protect yourself, you coild be in hot water. Thats a higher standard to meet than pepper spray.

 

[Bushman]

Just wait until any form of self defense is a felony...Criminals and Cops will rule the Earth...

 

[kilo92]

Who has experience with non-lethal options?

• Pepper Spray
• Pepper Gel
• Pepper Foam
• Taser
• Stun Gun
• Other

Most of us who who carry a firearm also carry a knife of some type. Some of us feel that because we carry a firearm we cannot engage in a physical confrontation because if an opponent discovered the firearms things can escalate. I am in that camp. I'd much rather blast someone in the face with pepper gel (or some other option) than pull a knife or get into a fist fight while I'm carrying. But I'm not very versed on the options available. So who has experience with what is out there now. What are your thoughts on the options out there and their use case?

If ever confronted with a choice between OC and taser, Choose taser. Taser hurts like hell but only lasts a short time. OC on the other hand lasts a long time. Training included submersion of head in water and scrubbing eyes with ivory soap. Not fun.

 

[Alexx1401]

When this 4-Nov Antifa threat was purportedly happening, I grabbed a half-dozen cans or hornet/wasp spray - it shoots a 15-20 ft stream (aim for the eye/mouth) - and the best part is, LEOs cannot construe it to be a concealed weapon. I gave a can to each of my daughters also (large purses are in vogue) and we practiced with one of the full cans.

You may want to watch the youtube where this stuff (wasp spray) is put to the test. It showed it as worthless for what you are wanting to use it for.

 

[CoastRange57]

I agree, I have never had much trouble in being a target. There is the chance that you are a specific target and then that stuff goes out the window.

As far as non-lethal I have no need. I am either in fear for my life or I am not. Its black and white. If I fear for my life I can use any means available to stop the threat. If I am not in fear for my life there should be no reason to engage with any weapon.

Cops are another matter, They have "situations" which warrant a weapon but not a bullet. I am not in a position to need compliance from an assailant that I cant neutralize with deadly force. If they attack, I am in fear for my life. If they don't, I have no need of any weapon.
End of story

Agree 100%. I am 60 years old, well trained, but simply not going to go hands on with anybody if I can avoid it. If I do, it will be pretty brutal since I have trained to incapacitate since nobody is going to kick my azz. The one thing that really has not been discussed is the after deployment actions that will be required to maintain control of the situation. Police have the ability to take the perp into custody and cuff them up and render them harmless. Most of us are not packing cuffs, although I have flex cuffs in both vehicles.

Good situational analysis before less than lethal deployment will give you your extraction strategy of the situation. What am I going to do after I blast this jack wagon with the pepper spray ?? Is he going down ?? Is he dusted or on a 3 day meth bender ?? Can I get out of the situation and to safety before he recovers ? Am I one on one or do I have secondary threats to worry about ? What is the backup plan if the less than lethal proves ineffective ?

If my verbal deescalation does not stop the threat, I will have made my decision on what comes next. In reality you may not have the time to decide if less than lethal will end the situation. Surviving the encounter and minimal injury will determine what happens next. If you can hit them with the pepper spray and then immediately leave the situation to safety you are good to go. If not then Plan B better be ready to implement.

 

[fxdc]

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Agree 100%. I am 60 years old, well trained, but simply not going to go hands on with anybody if I can avoid it. If I do, it will be pretty brutal since I have trained to incapacitate since nobody is going to kick my azz. The one thing that really has not been discussed is the after deployment actions that will be required to maintain control of the situation. Police have the ability to take the perp into custody and cuff them up and render them harmless. Most of us are not packing cuffs, although I have flex cuffs in both vehicles.

Good situational analysis before less than lethal deployment will give you your extraction strategy of the situation. What am I going to do after I blast this jack wagon with the pepper spray ?? Is he going down ?? Is he dusted or on a 3 day meth bender ?? Can I get out of the situation and to safety before he recovers ? Am I one on one or do I have secondary threats to worry about ? What is the backup plan if the less than lethal proves ineffective ?

If my verbal deescalation does not stop the threat, I will have made my decision on what comes next. In reality you may not have the time to decide if less than lethal will end the situation. Surviving the encounter and minimal injury will determine what happens next. If you can hit them with the pepper spray and then immediately leave the situation to safety you are good to go. If not then Plan B better be ready to implement.

Also to old to go the LONG haul with some one 1/2 my age ..... so it will be quick!

And PAINLESS ????
NOPE!!!!

 

[CoastRange57]

You may want to watch the youtube where this stuff (wasp spray) is put to the test. It showed it as worthless for what you are wanting to use it for.

The active ingredient in the wasp spray is pretty low and not likely to have any effect on humans even if applied to mucus membranes. The LD 50 dosages on it for humans are pretty high. It affects insects because it is absorbed through the exoskeleton into the entire body and the weight to dosage ratio is massive. If you were able to get even a small portion to the mucus membranes it will still have very little effect.

 

[mkwerx]

IF one were inclined to use a spray not meant for use on people, CRC Brake parts cleaner would be a more effective weapon than bug spray. But of course I would not recommend or endorse the use of such in nonapproved, non manufacturer endorsed manners...

 

[No_Regerts]

If ever confronted with a choice between OC and taser, Choose taser. Taser hurts like hell but only lasts a short time. OC on the other hand lasts a long time. Training included submersion of head in water and scrubbing eyes with ivory soap. Not fun.

In a controlled environment, absolutely. When the taser is done, you're back to normal. OC sucks for a while.

In real life, it would be the opposite. I can fight through OC and can still retain my weapon. If you get Tased, the other guy gets to take whatever he wants and can do whatever he wants to you. Bad spot to be in. If someone starts waiving a taser around, I'd consider that a lethal threat.

 

[CoastRange57]

IF one were inclined to use a spray not meant for use on people, CRC Brake parts cleaner would be a more effective weapon than bug spray. But of course I would not recommend or endorse the use of such in nonapproved, non manufacturer endorsed manners...

This. Also a high quality starting fluid with one of the WD40 tip extensions on it works well too. I used that on aggressive dogs back in my fuel delivery days and it worked quite well. I use it for wasp spray as well. Works a lot better than the chemical stuff.

 

[Alexx1401]

In a controlled environment, absolutely. When the taser is done, you're back to normal. OC sucks for a while.

In real life, it would be the opposite. I can fight through OC and can still retain my weapon. If you get Tased, the other guy gets to take whatever he wants and can do whatever he wants to you. Bad spot to be in. If someone starts waiving a taser around, I'd consider that a lethal threat.

YES! I have long said if someone pulls a Taser on a Cop they should be shot NOW!! Can't have them getting the Cops gun, or anyone for that matter.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The active ingredient in the wasp spray is pretty low and not likely to have any effect on humans even if applied to mucus membranes. The LD 50 dosages on it for humans are pretty high. It affects insects because it is absorbed through the exoskeleton into the entire body and the weight to dosage ratio is massive. If you were able to get even a small portion to the mucus membranes it will still have very little effect.

This is why people in the know use hairspray.

 

[CoastRange57]

We used hair spray in our spud guns years ago and experimented with a quick shot of of starting fluid to help it out. We never drank when we we doing that so it was safe.