National Legality of selling reloads.

[arakboss]

Not sure if you were agreeing or not. Selling ammo that you make, load , reload whatever with the intent to sell is not legal unless you have an 06 FFL. Profit has nothing to do with it. Most businesses do not make a profit for around 2 years after start up and some never make a profit. Are you inferring that if they arent making a profit they do not need an 06 FFL if they are loading ammo for sale? Really? Ive held an 01, 03. 06 ,07, 08 FFL's and SOT' to go with 07. Only reason I got the 06 is because it was 30 bucks a year and I was doing some sales of 300 whisper when it was impossible to get. Selling is done for the purpose of ( Intent ) making a profit whether you actually make a profit or not.

The issue we are most often dealing with here is not members making ammo with the intent to sell. These members are constantly being told by mods and members that it is illegal for them to sell their reloads unless they list them in the reloading section with a disclaimer that the reloads are to be disassembled and used for components only. It is my position as well as the BATF's that it is not illegal to sell reloaded ammo you did not reload with the intent to sell and no license is required to do so.

 

[oremike]

Thats not really how rules. laws and regulations work at all. Sure, you can choose to ignore them but that doesnt mean that the first cop who sees you rolling through the stop sign isnt going to fine you. It could also mean that if you load and sell ammo to a guy who goes on a shooting spree the ATF will come knocking at your door to put you in jail for not having a $30 a year license like they have done before.

Yes choices can have consequences.

 

[CLT65]

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use. [18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a); 27 CFR 478.41]

www.atf.gov

This is where some of the confusion and "gray area" comes in. "Selling or distributing for the purpose of livelihood or profit" is clear, and "reloading for personal use" is also clear, but what about occasionally "selling or distributing" without the purpose of livelihood or profit?

If we really wanted to take the debate into the weeds, what about the theoretical guy who decides to set up an unlicensed reloading operation, cranks them out by the thousand, and sells them specifically at cost just to magnanimously provide a service to shooters in his area, deliberately avoiding "livelihood or profit"?

Illegal, yes, no? I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be that guy, because he'll probably find out soon enough. Foolish? Yes absolutely, in my opinion.

 

[wired]

This is where some of the confusion and "gray area" comes in. "Selling or distributing for the purpose of livelihood or profit" is clear, and "reloading for personal use" is also clear, but what about occasionally "selling or distributing" without the purpose of livelihood or profit?

If we really wanted to take the debate into the weeds, what about the theoretical guy who decides to set up an unlicensed reloading operation, cranks them out by the thousand, and sells them specifically at cost just to magnanimously provide a service to shooters in his area, deliberately avoiding "livelihood or profit"?

Illegal, yes, no? I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be that guy, because he'll probably find out soon enough. Foolish? Yes absolutely, in my opinion.

If the ATF determines they are "engaged in the business" they need an 06 FFL. . Making a profit isnt a factor.

 

[oremike]

For me, and only me, me and my shooting buddies all or at least most of us have been reloading for years. When we'd get together for an old time shooten'fest we'd be like women at a bake sale swapping recepies and shooting each others ammo and guns. If someone ran low or forgot a particular ammo someone would help him out with a box or two of ammo. Everyone likes to pay their own way so some cash might be offered or some other barter item like a cheese burger or something. Once I decided to sell, trade,or barter ammo beyond my circle of friends and family it wasn't the legality that drove me to be legal, it was the liability. I know I make good ammo but if someone tripped and fell sticking the barrel of their gun in the mud then blew their gun up because of it I didn't want to gamble my house on the outcome. That's what the insurance if for.
Next, by being legal my business has write-offs like new firearms are test fixtures, mileage, new equipment all write offs.

 

[echo1]

The issue we are most often dealing with here is not members making ammo with the intent to sell. These members are constantly being told by mods and members that it is illegal for them to sell their reloads unless they list them in the reloading section with a disclaimer that the reloads are to be disassembled and used for components only. It is my position as well as the BATF's that it is not illegal to sell reloaded ammo you did not reload with the intent to sell and no license is required to do so.

This has been my experience for the most part, except for one old guy who did make rounds for sale. I bought ammo from him often until he passed.
Mosly .38 wad cutters. He cast his own boolits too. $5 bucks for 50 (?) ten years ago. I'd buy all he had.

Most all the other reloads I got with dies from folks changing calibers, estate sailing, or milsurp fellas calling it quits. With all of those sources the ammo came with either the load data on each box or written on a data sheet with bulk batches. I have to say that I've scored pretty hard on equipment besides the ammo. I know the old adage about someone elses rolls, but you can usually see crappy/sloppy work. PAX

 

[CLT65]

If the ATF determines they are "engaged in the business" they need an 06 FFL. . Making a profit isnt a factor.

I probably worded it poorly, but that's pretty much what I was trying to get at. No matter how you personally interpret the law and it's language regarding "profit and livelihood", if you get the attention of the authorities it's probably going to be unpleasant.

 

[gmerkt]

"In the business of," "purpose of livelihood," and "personal use" all are specific definitions.

The definition of business is, an arrangement for generating income, making money, or pursuing a regular occupation. This is very clear.

I am not a lawyer. BUT, here's an example. Say you have been a gun enthusiast and reloader for many years. You get old, decide to dispose of your goods. Which includes some reloaded ammo that you did not use up. You originally assembled this ammo for personal use. You did not assemble it in pursuit of profit, business, livelihood or regular occupation. It's my belief that this example does not require an 06 FFL. Because it agrees with the wording cited in 18 USC. Having said this, I'd hate to have to go to court to prove it out. Which wouldn't be very likely, considering what the ATF already has on their plate.

The old bugger sitting in the back of the WAC gun show years ago, I never asked but I'm pretty sure he was selling unlicensed reloads. He was there every month, regular as clockwork. His prices were fairly low, all cast bullet stuff. White boxes, lacking in markings except for caliber. No reference to origin, which I'm sure was intentional. Such a person in the business w/o license wouldn't want his address or phone number floating around after a blow-up.

Here is a case that isn't so clear. I used to see a couple of different guys at the WAC shows who'd go around and buy estate lots, etc., for resale at the shows. Including batches of reloads. This would've been a pretty good example of reloads being sold as a business activity. But in this case, it wasn't the guy who reloaded the ammo who was selling it. Yet since the ammo came from hobby sources, no doubt it had been manufactured without license. Probably would fall under the private use clause, because it hadn't originally been made for sale. The fact that it was now on sale was secondary to the intent of another person when it was first made.

given that their products cannot be legally sold in C.I.P. member states,

Well, this certainly helps to rule out the question of, "should I take a chance and shoot it?"

 

[BAJ475]

For me, and only me, me and my shooting buddies all or at least most of us have been reloading for years. When we'd get together for an old time shooten'fest we'd be like women at a bake sale swapping recepies and shooting each others ammo and guns. If someone ran low or forgot a particular ammo someone would help him out with a box or two of ammo. Everyone likes to pay their own way so some cash might be offered or some other barter item like a cheese burger or something. Once I decided to sell, trade,or barter ammo beyond my circle of friends and family it wasn't the legality that drove me to be legal, it was the liability. I know I make good ammo but if someone tripped and fell sticking the barrel of their gun in the mud then blew their gun up because of it I didn't want to gamble my house on the outcome. That's what the insurance if for.
Next, by being legal my business has write-offs like new firearms are test fixtures, mileage, new equipment all write offs.

Been reloading for nearly 60 years and I do reload for family. While I have some supplies that I purchased when things were available and not overpriced, I have not seen primers other than small quantities at ridiculous prices. So what are you doing for primers and do have any insight on when they may become available at decent prices?

 

[wired]

"In the business of," "purpose of livelihood," and "personal use" all are specific definitions.

The definition of business is, an arrangement for generating income, making money, or pursuing a regular occupation. This is very clear.

I am not a lawyer. BUT, here's an example. Say you have been a gun enthusiast and reloader for many years. You get old, decide to dispose of your goods. Which includes some reloaded ammo that you did not use up. You originally assembled this ammo for personal use. You did not assemble it in pursuit of profit, business, livelihood or regular occupation. It's my belief that this example does not require an 06 FFL. Because it agrees with the wording cited in 18 USC. Having said this, I'd hate to have to go to court to prove it out. Which wouldn't be very likely, considering what the ATF already has on their plate.

The old bugger sitting in the back of the WAC gun show years ago, I never asked but I'm pretty sure he was selling unlicensed reloads. He was there every month, regular as clockwork. His prices were fairly low, all cast bullet stuff. White boxes, lacking in markings except for caliber. No reference to origin, which I'm sure was intentional. Such a person in the business w/o license wouldn't want his address or phone number floating around after a blow-up.

Here is a case that isn't so clear. I used to see a couple of different guys at the WAC shows who'd go around and buy estate lots, etc., for resale at the shows. Including batches of reloads. This would've been a pretty good example of reloads being sold as a business activity. But in this case, it wasn't the guy who reloaded the ammo who was selling it. Yet since the ammo came from hobby sources, no doubt it had been manufactured without license. Probably would fall under the private use clause, because it hadn't originally been made for sale. The fact that it was now on sale was secondary to the intent of another person when it was first made.

The 86 FOPA removed the requirement that resellers of ammo have FFL's. No problem there.

I still dont get why anyone would do it anyway. Its the least expensive FFL by a longshot. 30 bucks a year.

 

[oremike]

Been reloading for nearly 60 years and I do reload for family. While I have some supplies that I purchased when things were available and not overpriced, I have not seen primers other than small quantities at ridiculous prices. So what are you doing for primers and do have any insight on when they may become available at decent prices?

One more advantage of having the FFL is I buy wholesale. I do sign a waver stating that I will only use the componates for making ammo. That being said for the first time in 18 months I've been allowed to get on the backorder list so that when they get in I might be able to get some. Price will be about twice what they were pre china flu. Best I can say is that things apear to be getting better. But we are not where we should be yet.

 

[BAJ475]

One more advantage of having the FFL is I buy wholesale. I do sign a waver stating that I will only use the components for making ammo. That being said for the first time in 18 months I've been allowed to get on the backorder list so that when they get in I might be able to get some. Price will be about twice what they were pre china flu. Best I can say is that things appear to be getting better. But we are not where we should be yet.

Thank you for your reply. After 18 months you get on a backorder list. That is brutal. Hope you had a decent inventory when COVID hit. I too am concerned about the price because we are not getting the Wolf and Tula primers like we had been. Double pre COVID prices is still too high compared to actual manufacturing costs. Not wanting to charge an unreasonable price, I recently sold a 1K brick of 223 primers to a fellow reloader I met in a local gun store for $35. Probably was about $10 more that I had paid, but not double. He was looking for SR primers to load 300BO ammo for his father. He appeared to me in his late 50s or early 60s, so I ask how old was his father. It turned out dad was 78 and that he was a VietNam vet like myself. That did it, I told him to call his dad and tell him it was his lucky day because I would sell him a 1K brick of SR primers at a fair price.

 

[gmerkt]

I still dont get why anyone would do it anyway. Its the least expensive FFL by a longshot. 30 bucks a year.

I don't know what it entails exactly, but could be the ATF inspection that oremike mentioned may discourage some.

My opinion, some don't fully understand the implications of not being licensed. Either with an FFL or whatever business license(s) may be required by state / local authorities. Part of which is the need for liability insurance in a business. Beyond that, they may not understand the economic feasability of a small manufacturing operation. Mostly the part about what it costs them to do it. Simply put, a general lack of knowledge of the facts involved.

They might think they are reducing expenses by cutting corners. And it may work but when it doesn't, it can get nasty. Like the guy who made ammo that the Las Vegas shooter bought.

 

[BAJ475]

I don't know what it entails exactly, but could be the ATF inspection that oremike mentioned may discourage some.

My opinion, some don't fully understand the implications of not being licensed. Either with an FFL or whatever business license(s) may be required by state / local authorities. Part of which is the need for liability insurance in a business. Beyond that, they may not understand the economic feasability of a small manufacturing operation. Mostly the part about what it costs them to do it. Simply put, a general lack of knowledge of the facts involved.

They might think they are reducing expenses by cutting corners. And it may work but when it doesn't, it can get nasty. Like the guy who made ammo that the Las Vegas shooter bought.

Are you saying that the Las Vegas shooter did not use name brand ammo?

 

[arakboss]

I guess some good advice for members is, don't reload ammo with intent to sell and don't build firearms with intent to sell. That should help keep the authorities happy.

That advice might not prevent friction with classifide operators though.

 

[gmerkt]

Are you saying that the Las Vegas shooter did not use name brand ammo?

Yes.

Arizona man who sold ammo to Las Vegas shooter sentenced to prison

An Arizona man who pleaded guilty to manufacturing ammo sold to the gunman who carried out the Route 91 shooting in Las Vegas was sentenced to prison Tuesday afternoon.

www.fox5vegas.com

He was unlucky. Yes, the ATF already has a lot on their plate when it comes to low-level offenses, but not too much in a high-profile case.

Numb-nuts left his name and contact info on his packaging.

I'm sure never in his wildest dreams did he figure that his product would be used to kill all those people.

 

[BAJ475]

Yes.

Arizona man who sold ammo to Las Vegas shooter sentenced to prison

An Arizona man who pleaded guilty to manufacturing ammo sold to the gunman who carried out the Route 91 shooting in Las Vegas was sentenced to prison Tuesday afternoon.

www.fox5vegas.com

He was unlucky. Yes, the ATF already has a lot on their plate when it comes to low-level offenses, but not too much in a high-profile case.

Numb-nuts left his name and contact info on his packaging.

I'm sure never in his wildest dreams did he figure that his product would be used to kill all those people.

Thanks for the reply. I did not know that. It would appear from my brief reading of the news reports, that it was not so much selling but selling ammo he had manufactured as a business enterprise without the required FFL.

 

[oremike]

My thoughts on this whole ammo thing are that everyone is looking for "the deal". For me "the deal" is to make my own ammo for all the reasons people roll their own. I don't buy other peoples ammo because I don't shoot other peoples ammo and that includes big brand ammo. I've got nothing against other peoples ammo, I just plain like my ammo and what I sell is exactly what I shoot. Obviously lots of people like my ammo as well or I'd not be still in business. I don't buy "ammo for components", not even for my personal use. Taking them apart just to put them back together again seems silly to me but to each their own. I just buy what I want and make the ammo my way. As far as the gray area legality, that's their choice to do that dance, not mine, but everything is legal until the red and blues come on.

 

[ma96782]

Well.....it appears to me, that the OP already knew what the answer would be in his first post.

+++++
+++++

Taking a somewhat Closer Look.....
As for the "disclaimers" by posting ammo for sale and telling folks that it is for "components only".

Hummmmm......
So then, what is the big/real difference from a manufacturer putting up stuff (for example: antibiotics or certain medicines), for sale for "animal use only, not safe for human consumption"?

YEAH......and there are even some other threads (on the internet) that also talks about buying "prescription drugs" from some foreign mail-order pharmacies without a doctor's prescription too.

Rrrrright.....
Then.....
BLAH, Blah, blah......asking for "legal advice" on the internet.

YEAH, Yeah, yeah.....

Aloha, Mark

PS.....It seems to ME.....
That I am seeing more and more threads asking "questions" about stuff as if they were looking to enact more/new legislation. To HELP the LEFT to "plug up the loopholes" (more correctly, what the LEFT sees as loopholes). As if......probing to see......just how much more "INFRINGEMENT" we gun owners would be willing to put up with.

 

[arakboss]

Well.....it appears to me, that the OP already knew what the answer would be in his first post.

+++++
+++++

Taking a somewhat Closer Look.....
As for the "disclaimers" by posting ammo for sale and telling folks that it is for "components only".

Hummmmm......
So then, what is the big/real difference from a manufacturer putting up stuff (for example: antibiotics or certain medicines), for sale for "animal use only, not safe for human consumption"?

YEAH......and there are even some other threads (on the internet) that also talks about buying "prescription drugs" from some foreign mail-order pharmacies without a doctor's prescription too.

Rrrrright.....
Then.....
BLAH, Blah, blah......asking for "legal advice" on the internet.

YEAH, Yeah, yeah.....

Aloha, Mark

PS.....It seems to ME.....
That I am seeing more and more threads asking "questions" about stuff as if they were looking to enact more/new legislation. To HELP the LEFT to "plug up the loopholes" (more correctly, what the LEFT sees as loopholes). As if......probing to see......just how much more "INFRINGEMENT" we gun owners would be willing to put up with.

Not much closer to getting an answer to the legality of selling reloads and how that legality changes depending on which section of the classifieds you post them in and what disclaimer you provide.

That is a good point about medicines that are labeled "animal use only, not safe for human consumption". I wonder if that is required by law, regulations or just the manufacture providing info for the consumer? My guess is you could find that requirement in FDA regulations somewhere. I am not as confident that you could find a classifieds disclaimer requirement for selling reloads in BATF regulations but it may be there?