Washington SBS: Legality of firearms is getting tiresome.

[MikeSD]

This state is getting tiresome, trying to figure out what is legal and what is not.

* Short barrel shotguns are illegal in WA. Seems pretty straight forward. WA law say they are.

* But are Shockwaves and Tac-14 actually SBS, in WA? Not so straight forward.

* ATF considers them a "firearm" but not a shotgun.

So are they actually legal or illegal. You can buy them over the counter and walk out the same day. That seems to say they are legal.

But I'd bet if you are found with one in Seattle. There might be a different view. Not because they are or aren't legal but because no one really knows until WA law is tested.

What do you think?

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[Bushman]

Tagged

 

[Alexx1401]

This state is getting tiresome, trying to figure out what is legal and what is not.

* Short barrel shotguns are illegal in WA. Seems pretty straight forward. WA law say they are.

* But are Shockwaves and Tac-14 actually SBS, in WA? Not so straight forward.

* ATF considers them a "firearm" but not a shotgun.

So are they actually legal or illegal. You can buy them over the counter and walk out the same day. That seems to say they are legal.

But I'd bet if you are found with one in Seattle. There might be a different view. Not because they are or aren't legal but because no one really knows until WA law is tested.

What do you think?

I "think" that if you can walk into a gun shop in Seattle and walk out with one? Then they are legal in Seattle. Now by "found with one" depends on what you are planing on doing when "found with one". I would not suggest walking around with one loaded, or carry one in your vehicle loaded.

 

[bradsteen]

Shockwaves & Tac14s aren't SBSs. Shotguns are designed or intended to be fired from the shoulder. Because Shockwaves / Tac14s are pistol grip only with OAL greater than 26" they don't fit the legal definition of a shotgun, and therefore are considered a "firearm".

ATF has made noise about reclassifying them as SBSs, but lacks the legal authority to do so - that would require changing existing laws, which is the remit of Congress. Will the ATF try anyway? Probably, but they're already getting their butts handed to them over the brace debacle for violations of the administrative procedures act and separation of powers (among the many challenges) for that exact reason. So until such a time as a formal reclassification is done, they are legal in WA.

Now, don't expect law enforcement to know anything about firearm classification. They may jump to the conclusion that it's an SBS, so if confronted be prepared to politely explain the classification to them and how it differs from an SBS. That being said, unless you have one in your vehicle during a traffic stop or use one in a home defense context I can't think of a situation where they would know you have one in the first place.

 

[MikeSD]

Shockwaves & Tac14s aren't SBSs. Shotguns are designed or intended to be fired from the shoulder. Because Shockwaves / Tac14s are pistol grip only with OAL greater than 26" they don't fit the legal definition of a shotgun, and therefore are considered a "firearm".

ATF has made noise about reclassifying them as SBSs, but lacks the legal authority to do so - that would require changing existing laws, which is the remit of Congress. Will the ATF try anyway? Probably, but they're already getting their butts handed to them over the brace debacle for violations of the administrative procedures act and separation of powers (among the many challenges) for that exact reason. So until such a time as a formal reclassification is done, they are legal in WA.

Now, don't expect law enforcement to know anything about firearm classification. They may jump to the conclusion that it's an SBS, so if confronted be prepared to politely explain the classification to them and how it differs from an SBS. That being said, unless you have one in your vehicle during a traffic stop or use one in a home defense context I can't think of a situation where they would know you have one in the . But states can use their own definitions. ATF does not supersede State Laws, I would bet.

Thst is true, for the ATF. But states are free to use their own definitions. And they can be more restrictive.


Example: the ATF allows citizens to register certain fully automatic weapons making them legal in some states. But you cant own them in WA, period, even if the ATF allows it

 

[Alexx1401]

Thst is true, for the ATF. But states are free to use their own definitions. And they can be more restrictive.


Example: the ATF allows citizens to register certain fully automatic weapons making them legal in some states. But you cant own them in WA, period, even if the ATF allows it

Well kind of. The ATF will not allow you to buy a stamp for a full auto if the state you are in will not allow it. WA did allow these at one time and those that were registered at that time are still legal to own here.

 

[MikeSD]

Well kind of. The ATF will not allow you to buy a stamp for a full auto if the state you are in will not allow it. WA did allow these at one time and those that were registered at that time are still legal to own here

But that doesn't change what I said, the ATF Still allows registering full-auto, for full auto mfg before the ban. If I live in another state, and want to move to a state that bans them, with no previous legality, I still can't take a registered full-auto to that new state. The state over-rules the ATF, on gun legality, in it's state. That was just one of many examples.

My point was, that WA law will be used, NOT ATF definitions. The ATF does not trump WA law. That is why WA legislation provide their own definitions.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

For tactical shotgun or fun one might say piss on that stuff. Buy the cool stuff that they are going to ban. Fe a 12 gauge AK with rotary drum before they are banned (likely next couple weeks). Enjoy the fun of 300 rounds per minute (note that this is the same rate of fire as the full auto AA-12 shotgun which costs $20,000). Put muzzle brake on its threaded barrel to reduce recoil by 70%. Sds imports lynx 12 is $300 used - $450 new. Made by same factory producing AKs for 50+ years. More reliable than a $1700 saiga 12. Uses all regular aK furniture and any saiga 12 stick or rotary mags or accessories.

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• Aug 25, 2022

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• Aug 25, 2022

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• Aug 25, 2022

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• ilikegunspdx
• Aug 25, 2022

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• ilikegunspdx
• Jun 13, 2022

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• ilikegunspdx
• Feb 14, 2022

 

[Alexx1401]

But that doesn't change what I said, the ATF Still allows registering full-auto, for full auto mfg before the ban. If I live in another state, and want to move to a state that bans them, with no previous legality, I still can't take a registered full-auto to that new state. The state over-rules the ATF, on gun legality, in it's state. That was just one of many examples.

My point was, that WA law will be used, NOT ATF definitions. The ATF does not trump WA law. That is why WA legislation provide their own definitions.

This gets very convoluted by people who seem to want it to be hard. We are talking WA State and 2 kinds of shotgun here. OP is asking if they are legal to have in WA state. The answer is very simple. Can you walk into a shop in WA state and buy one? Yes? Then yes they are legal here. How this gets dragged into the weeds with the difference between Fed gun laws and state laws is again someone just has to make the simple hard.
So want a full auto In WA? Can you walk into a gun shop in WA and buy one? No? Pretty simple.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

This gets very convoluted by people who seem to want it to be hard. We are talking WA State and 2 kinds of shotgun here. OP is asking if they are legal to have in WA state. The answer is very simple. Can you walk into a shop in WA state and buy one? Yes? Then yes they are legal here. How this gets dragged into the weeds with the difference between Fed gun laws and state laws is again someone just has to make the simple hard.
So want a full auto In WA? Can you walk into a gun shop in WA and buy one? No? Pretty simple.

Agree. Also why mess with it when threaded barrels, semi auto, large capacity mags, rotary mags gonna be banned. Buy a 19" barrel lynx 12 and have all those features before the ban and you are good to go (but your grandson/daughter can't inherit it legally but piss on that). Only failure I've heard of with these is one case of a bolt at 11,000 rounds. Mine cycle any 12 gauge ammo reliably without even changing the adjustable gas port.

Great video by Ian and company about why pistol grip shotguns with no stock suck:

 

[Alexx1401]

Agree. Also why mess with it when threaded barrels, semi auto, large capacity mags, rotary mags gonna be banned. Buy a 19" barrel lynx 12 and have all those features before the ban and you are good to go (but your grandson/daughter can't inherit it legally but piss on that). Only failure I've heard of with these is a bolt at 11,000 rounds. Mine cycle any 12 gauge ammo reliably without even changing the adjustable gas port.

Great video by Ian and company about why pistol grip shotguns with no stock suck:

Sadly unless gun owners and just those who like freedom do not start to vote better a lot of stuff will soon be a no go here. The way the courts are going right now some of these asinine laws we are going to pass "may" get overturned eventually. In the meantime I will keep buying what I want. I am currently looking for one of the newer Henry's in 9mm. They are threaded and if king jay bans them before my favorite distributor can get me one I guess I will not be buying one. If they do get one in and then king jay bans them but allows me to keep it for now? It is what it is. Couple kids live in ID which is still free for now. So I guess when I shuffle off if WA has not been beat in court the kids there can take the stuff. Hell when I'm gone what do I care

 

[MikeSD]

This gets very convoluted by people who seem to want it to be hard. We are talking WA State and 2 kinds of shotgun here. OP is asking if they are legal to have in WA state. The answer is very simple. Can you walk into a shop in WA state and buy one? Yes? Then yes they are legal here. How this gets dragged into the weeds with the difference between Fed gun laws and state laws is again someone just has to make the simple hard.
So want a full auto In WA? Can you walk into a gun shop in WA and buy one? No? Pretty simple.

Devil's advocate view: It's illegal to own an auto-knife in wa, and even according to federal law, but there are dealers in WA who will let you walk in and buy one. One dealer said, they are illegal, as soon as you walk out the door. So, it's not enrirely accurate whether buying one is a sign of legality. That is why I'm overly concerned with "The actual law vs. what one can get away with". I bend over backwards to always stay within the law. Because violating even the smallest part of these laws, might make me lose all the rest.

OBEY the written law, unless you want to be the test case.

PS: Going down now to pick up my M1A Super Match.

 

[Jbquick]

How many threads do we need to beat this dead horse a little more?

 

[MikeSD]

How many threads do we need to beat this dead horse a little more?

I suppose we don't need any. All I was looking for was a definitive answer. Which one of the threads has the definitive answer?

 

[uberguy]

The answer is very simple. Can you walk into a shop in WA state and buy one? Yes? Then yes they are legal here.

I did, living in the Seattle area, so you're right - they are legal, for now because this form-factor did not exist when the ban-happy legislative crowd in Olympia took action on short barrel firearms.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

For me the correct answers are:

1) Ignore these unconstitutional and illegal gun laws and be smart about it, don't advertise you are doing it and keep a low profile

2) Donate to GOA, SAF, and other groups that are effectively killing these BS laws in court

3) Buy the good stuff ASAP before the F'ers ban it

 

[FourTeeFive]

I am currently looking for one of the newer Henry's in 9mm.

Damn; you got me all excited when you mentioned a Henry in 9mm. I'd love a lever-action tube-magazine 9mm! But I see it is a semi-auto.

 

[MikeSD]

For me the correct answers are:

1) Ignore these unconstitutional and illegal gun laws and be smart about it, don't advertise you are doing it and keep a low profile

2) Donate to GOA, SAF, and other groups that are effectively killing these BS laws in court

3) Buy the good stuff ASAP before the F'ers ban it

#1 is the worst possible advice. You are saying "disobey the law". That's actually a worse position than the progressive position. Your advice can land people in jail, until and unless they win their case. AND, if they get charged, and don't win their case, they might become a prohibited person, and lose all their fireamrs. AND either way, it will cost them a ton of money.

I agree with #2 and #3. Nothing I own is currently illegal, nor will they be after a ban, so I'm ok at just ignoring your #1

 

[ilikegunspdx]

#1 is the worst possible advice. You are saying "disobey the law". That's actually a worse position than the progressive position. Your advice can land people in jail, until and unless they win their case. AND either way, it will cost them a lot of money.

You do you buddy

 

[Alexx1401]

I did, living in the Seattle area, so you're right - they are legal, for now because this form-factor did not exist when the ban-happy legislative crowd in Olympia took action on short barrel firearms.

The simple answer again is can you walk into a gun shop in WA state today and buy one. I still can't understand why people seek ways to make this hard.
Did gun shops in WA stop selling these? If so then the answer is right there. People can speculate on what they "might some day ban" if it makes them feel better. Bottom line does not change today. Can you walk into an FFL in WA today and buy one? If so they are not yet banned. If people want to "worry" that "some day" WA "may" ban some gun? Then I guess don't buy anything and live in fear.