National Legality of selling reloads.

[arakboss]

I didn't mean as a guy selling ammo out of his trunk to make a living, I meant as a guy selling off loads he had/made then maybe switched calibers, or whatever...PAX

I wasn't implying that what you were saying was silly but the idea that many people have with regards to listing a supposedly illegal product. The idea goes something like this. A guy makes up ammo in his garage (no manufacturing license) and sells them in the ammo section of this website. Many consider this illegal. These same people believe if you sell the same assembled ammo in the reloading section and include the words "for components only" or something similar that makes it legal to sell the very same product.

Imagine if the seller was making firearms in his garage (no manufacturing license) and sells them on the rifle/handgun section of the forum. Do we consider that illegal? The BATF might if the seller is doing it as a business or to support their livelihood.

Imagine if the same seller was listing the same assembled firearms in the parts section of the classifieds but included the words 'sold for parts only". Would the BATF consider this legal because of which section of the classifieds the firearms were listed in or that they included the words "sold for parts only"? I am guessing not, the BATF will be looking at whether you were doing the activity as a business or to support your livelihood.

 

[deadeye]

Pretty sure there wouldn't be so many places online selling reloads if it was illegal.

The difference is the online reloads/ remanufactured are from an FFL (06) licensed manufacturer not some joe blow making them in his garage to sell at a profit.

 

[deadeye]

Imagine if the seller was making firearms in his garage (no manufacturing license) and sells them on the rifle/handgun section of the forum. Do we consider that illegal? The BATF might if the seller is doing it as a business or to support their livelihood.

Imagine if the same seller was listing the same assembled firearms in the parts section of the classifieds but included the words 'sold for parts only". Would the BATF consider this legal because of which section of the classifieds the firearms were listed in or that they included the words "sold for parts only"? I am guessing not, the BATF will be looking at whether you were doing the activity as a business or to support your livelihood.

First paragraph: that would require a supporting vendor membership to start and of course the need for an FFL transfer. If found out by staff that this was the case they would be banned due to the non FFL license issue.

second paragraph: the complete rifle would need to be in the rifle/pistol sections as it would include a serialized lower. then the same would happen as above if no FFL is found out.

 

[wired]

Law enforcement agencies are more than capable of enforcing gun and ammunition laws. They dont need help from hall monitors.

 

[EPS]

If I remember right .
The Las Vegas shooter used reloads or had bought a bunch from a guy.
And they went after that guy for selling ammunition with out a license and other stuff.

 

[deadeye]

Law enforcement agencies are more than capable of enforcing gun and ammunition laws. They dont need help from hall monitors.

If it puts the NWFA site in possible legal trouble, then it is not allowed period. The rules are there for a reason as well as the terms of service, every member agreed to them when joining.

Pretty sure @Joe Link went through a lot of hassle to get them where they are today.

 

[arakboss]

If it puts the NWFA site in possible legal trouble, then it is not allowed period. The rules are there for a reason as well as the terms of service, every member agreed to them when joining.

Pretty sure @Joe Link went through a lot of hassle to get them where they are today.

We all appreciate @Joe Link work. Adding a rule #17 to address this issue which comes up very frequently would be a welcome addition to the site. At this point members are relying on their interpretation of the laws which clash with other members interpretations. A forum rule specifically addressing how and where to sell reloads would be helpful and worthwhile. Relying on rule #1 is not helpful when everybody has different intepretations of the law.

 

[oremike]

We all appreciate @Joe Link work. Adding a rule #17 to address this issue which comes up very frequently would be a welcome addition to the site. At this point members are relying on their interpretation of the laws which clash with other members interpretations. A forum rule specifically addressing how and where to sell reloads would be helpful and worthwhile. Relying on rule #1 is not helpful when everybody has different intepretations of the law.

LOL, just what we need, more rules. Stop trying to Califoricate us.

 

[thorborg]

My opine, or just another "interpretation":
Regardless of what rules you apply here regarding this subject, (and I'm with @oremike here as far as avoiding excessive rules) it is still just another "interpretation". Eventually, all laws fall short of intention. Any such addition to the forum should be reprints of the actual legal verbiage without opine. Beyond that, its just your opinion (or interpretation) and while Joe should have the right to steer his forum any way he wants right or wrong, it would seem to me a sticky road best to be avoided. If a rule must be applied here it should be that no assembled ammo of any kind home or factory is to be sold on this form because even factory stuff have been faked. Bear in mind though that sooner or later it will be components, and eventually Guns, that's how it works, nibble, nobble.
No law is so succinct that someone some where is not able to reinterpret it above or behind its original intent. especially if the ear the argument is offered to is sympathetic to the cause. (or you have enough money) Even the constitution is constantly being "reinterpreted" by those wanting to degrade it out of existents which little by little it is slowly being watered down. Ironically, the more laws , rules, amendments, regulations etc. that are generated, (in many cases thought to be for clarification) the more "loopholes" and interpretations become available to the devious thinker on either side.

 

[arakboss]

My opine, or just another "interpretation":
Regardless of what rules you apply here regarding this subject, (and I'm with @oremike here as far as avoiding excessive rules) it is still just another "interpretation". Eventually, all laws fall short of intention. Any such addition to the forum should be reprints of the actual legal verbiage without opine. Beyond that, its just your opinion (or interpretation) and while Joe should have the right to steer his forum any way he wants right or wrong, it would seem to me a sticky road best to be avoided. If a rule must be applied here it should be that no assembled ammo of any kind home or factory is to be sold on this form because even factory stuff have been faked. Bear in mind though that sooner or later it will be components, and eventually Guns, that's how it works, nibble, nobble.
No law is so succinct that someone some where is not able to reinterpret it above or behind its original intent. especially if the ear the argument is offered to is sympathetic to the cause. (or you have enough money) Even the constitution is constantly being "reinterpreted" by those wanting to degrade it out of existents which little by little it is slowly being watered down. Ironically, the more laws , rules, amendments, regulations etc. that are generated, (in many cases thought to be for clarification) the more "loopholes" and interpretations become available to the devious thinker on either side.

Good point. We could just let people sell what they want and not interfere. I would vote for that.

 

[Knebel]

Whats considered profit? If you take component price PLUS the time it takes to make them...lets say value an hour of reloading at 20$. Then sell them with that in mind I personally wouldn't consider that profit. You sure gotta sell a lot of ammo to make a livelyhood out of that.

I too have given away reloads to someone for the price of components when there was NO 9mm factory ammo available. No profit to be made.

So if you list for components only its up to the buyer if they decide to shoot them?

 

[tac]

Selling your reloads is not a problem here in UK.

Well, so long as the police are not involved in some way.

The last guy who sold his home loads is currently about five years into a fourteen-year vacation in the Grey Hotel, Wandsworth.

This is a direct translation from the French text [huh] -

Although the same approval rules do not apply to hand loaders, given that their products cannot be legally sold in C.I.P. member states, in the interests of safety most Proof Houses afford those parties opportunity to batch test their ammunition to ensure that the associated chamber pressures, velocities and momentum are within acceptable standards. By so doing it reduces the potential for weapons being damaged, thereby injuring the user or innocent bystanders. Previous tests of this nature in the past have indicated the poor standards adopted by some of such parties and the lack of uniformity between rounds of ammunition.

Needless to say, you do not get paid for any of this - au contraire, YOU must pay for the tests to be carried out. Mes Amis, it is not cheap, trust me. Did I mention that the minimum required for testing, assessment and evaluation is 5000 rounds in each calibre?

Ah. Thort not.

Best not to bother, eh?

 

[wired]

Good point. We could just let people sell what they want and not interfere. I would vote for that.

Who's we?

 

[wired]

Whats considered profit? If you take component price PLUS the time it takes to make them...lets say value an hour of reloading at 20$. Then sell them with that in mind I personally wouldn't consider that profit. You sure gotta sell a lot of ammo to make a livelyhood out of that.

I too have given away reloads to someone for the price of components when there was NO 9mm factory ammo available. No profit to be made.

So if you list for components only its up to the buyer if they decide to shoot them?

What does profit have to do with anything. Just the process of loading and selling ammo without a 06 FFL isnt legal. No one cares if you make money doing it.

I honestly dont care one bit what anyone with their time or if they sell cat porn and sniff marijuana off toilet seats. I'll point out that what theyre doing is illegal while I'm buying their illegally produced ammo.

 

[arakboss]

Who's we?

Management and members.

 

[arakboss]

What does profit have to do with anything. Just the process of loading and selling ammo without a 06 FFL isnt legal. No one cares if you make money doing it.

I honestly dont care one bit what anyone with their time or if they sell cat porn and sniff marijuana off toilet seats. I'll point out that what theyre doing is illegal while I'm buying their illegally produced ammo.

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I just give away my reloads to deserving souls. Blam blamblam ballaayam!

 

[wired]

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.

Not sure if you were agreeing or not. Selling ammo that you make, load , reload whatever with the intent to sell is not legal unless you have an 06 FFL. Profit has nothing to do with it. Most businesses do not make a profit for around 2 years after start up and some never make a profit. Are you inferring that if they arent making a profit they do not need an 06 FFL if they are loading ammo for sale? Really? Ive held an 01, 03. 06 ,07, 08 FFL's and SOT' to go with 07. Only reason I got the 06 is because it was 30 bucks a year and I was doing some sales of 300 whisper when it was impossible to get. Selling is done for the purpose of ( Intent ) making a profit whether you actually make a profit or not.

 

[oremike]

Here is a different way to think about this. As we go through life there are lots different rules, laws and regulations. Each one of us will interpret them as we chose or see fit. That is what freedom of choice is. Someone might slow down and look both ways at a stop sign and then roll right thru it even though the "law" is you must come to a full stop. That is their choice. Just because the person in front of you rolled the stop, you don't have to again your choice.

 

[wired]

Here is a different way to think about this. As we go through life there are lots different rules, laws and regulations. Each one of us will interpret them as we chose or see fit. That is what freedom of choice is. Someone might slow down and look both ways at a stop sign and then roll right thru it even though the "law" is you must come to a full stop. That is their choice. Just because the person in front of you rolled the stop, you don't have to again your choice.

Thats not really how rules. laws and regulations work at all. Sure, you can choose to ignore them but that doesnt mean that the first cop who sees you rolling through the stop sign isnt going to fine you. It could also mean that if you load and sell ammo to a guy who goes on a shooting spree the ATF will come knocking at your door to put you in jail for not having a $30 a year license like they have done before.