Is the US better prepared for a nuclear blast today than it was 60 years ago?

[The Heretic]

With over 500 operational warheads China has enough nukes to wipe out the US. And No, NATO could not over run the Russians. The Russians primary Nuclear strategy is to nuke Western Europe in case of an invasion of the motherland flowed by the US then the motherland as needed to repel invaders. Any thought that Russia would just lay down and allow Russia to be invaded by NATO in a conventional war is pure folly. They built their nukes for a purpose.

The premise that Russia would use their nukes to stop a conventional war invasion is based on the assertion that the Russian military would obey Putin's orders to do so. Putin grows politically weaker by the day. It is an open question whether the Kremlin and the military would follow him to mutually assured destruction of the world, or whether they would overthrow him and ask NATO for terms.

Conversely, if Russia invades a NATO country, NATO will not sit back and allow that to happen, but NATO and the USA would not use nukes because they would not need to - unless Russia launched.

 

[OldBroad44]

I think the big danger is if Putin or Xi thought that he was going out of power, and were going to be deposed, he might order the beginning of armagedon. Their hatred for us is real. Would either of them prefer to die and bring the USA along rather than lose power in his own society even without being conquered? I think so.

I think its wishful thinking to imagine that Putin or Xi would not have the power to send the nukes.

Anybody know what the official protocals are in Russia and China for sending their nukes?

I know what they supposedly are in the USA but I kinda doubt the official protocol would actually be followed. Biden is allowed to spout off, but he often gets overridden by the news spinners telling us what Biden really meant. Would he be allowed to be half the decision for sending the nukes? I'd bet not.

 

[The Heretic]

I think the big danger is if Putin or Xi thought that he was going out of power, and were going to be deposed, he might order the beginning of armagedon.

Putin yes, Xi no. Two different people, two different cultures, two different power structures.

 

[OldBroad44]

Putin yes, Xi no. Two different people, two different cultures, two different power structures.

Of course they are two different people/cultures. But similar in that both cultures were authoritarian and totalitarian long before each became communist. Both spent years assassinating, imprisoning, and disappearing all potential competitors. Neither could expect to live long after a loss of power. The concept of rule of law has really never existed in either place. Leaders of both cultures have little regard for their own citizens.

 

[Cavedweller]

I know what they supposedly are in the USA but I kinda doubt the official protocol would actually be followed. Biden is allowed to spout off, but he often gets overridden by the news spinners telling us what Biden really meant. Would he be allowed to be half the decision for sending the nukes? I'd bet not.

Darn good question. Until recently we had a traitorous Chairman of the Joint Chiefs who is on record stating that he called his Chinese counterpart and said he would warn them if the US planned to attack. Instead of being in prison for this treason he is retired on a generous pension, and I haven't checked but probably also has a cush, high paying job with some defense contractor. Who knows who is running things these days, but it probably isn't senile old Joe. Supposedly the nuclear football follows him around, but I'd bet it would be Blinkin, Kirby and/or Sullivan making the call.

Blinkin and Kirby on verge of panic as Biden talks to press at conclusion of Israel trip:

Terrified Administration Officials Try to Pull Biden Away as He Speaks to Media on Air Force One

Administration officials fidgeted and interrupted as if desperate to prevent the president from saying something embarrassing.

www.westernjournal.com

 

[OldBroad44]

Actually, while Biden seemed old and slow, his answers all seemed good and honest too. He explicitly refused to answer questions that he couldn't answer without creating problems for either US or Israel. Repeatedly. I had thought the guy was too senile to give the sort of performance he did here. Maybe I've underestimated him. At least in situations like this. I had wondered why he even went and what he was hoping to accomplish. He gave a pretty clear answer. To make clear to the Israelis that they must allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. That whatever was done to Israel, the world will turn against them if they are able to do that now and dont. And a/the major reason why he was there is when a disaster has happened that's what you do. You show up. You listen. It helps people to know that you care.

I didn't vote for Biden, and won't next time either, though. The woke cr@p and taking on such an incompetent flake of a vp and sabotaging our oil production and going green in ways that are unworkable don't work for me. I really like DeSantis. Time to totally dump the DEI cr@p.

 

[OldBroad44]

I grew up in L.A. in the '50s and '60s. Many underground parking garages, office building basements, and the like were designated fallout shelters. Entrances were labeled with signs like the one below. Shelters were stocked with emergency food and water, blankets, etc. I'm not sure exactly when funding for that program was cut, but I think it was sometime in the '60s. Much of the supplies made their way to the surplus market.

View attachment 1785102
You can still find relics of the program for sale to collectors:

Victoreen CDV715 Radiation Detection Kit for sale online | eBay

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Can't say that I consider basements of ordinary buildings as "real" fallout shelters. They wouldn't even stand up to the sort of bombs London got during WWII. The London residents had shelters underground. I think basements or parking garages as fallout shelters is just a way of soothing the civilians into thinking they would be safe when they would not. You need a filtration system to remove radioactive dust from the air you are breathing. You need to be in deep tunnels. The basement of a building just means you'll be buried in rubble when the building collapses. About as useful as teaching school kids to hide under their desks. Hiding in the subway system in Boston or NY would probably work. But don't know whether those were ever designated shelters. I was an AF brat usually living on or near major targets during the era. We never practiced ducking and covering. When your HS is right outside the base that was Headquarters SAC, ya kinda figure that you and your base and school and school desk are just gonna all be incinerated.

 

[wired]

Can't say that I consider basements of ordinary buildings as "real" fallout shelters. They wouldn't even stand up to the sort of bombs London got during WWII. The London residents had shelters underground. I think basements or parking garages as fallout shelters is just a way of soothing the civilians into thinking they would be safe when they would not. You need a filtration system to remove radioactive dust from the air you are breathing. You need to be in deep tunnels. The basement of a building just means you'll be buried in rubble when the building collapses. About as useful as teaching school kids to hide under their desks. Hiding in the subway system in Boston or NY would probably work. But don't know whether those were ever designated shelters. I was an AF brat usually living on or near major targets during the era. We never practiced ducking and covering. When your HS is right outside the base that was Headquarters SAC, ya kinda figure that you and your base and school and school desk are just gonna all be incinerated.

A fallout shelter is not a bomb shelter.

 

[OldBroad44]

A fallout shelter is not a bomb shelter.

Good point @wired . Did the fallout shelters have a way of filtering (radioactive) dust out of the air people would be breathing?

 

[wired]

Good point @wired . Did the fallout shelters have a way of filtering (radioactive) dust out of the air people would be breathing?

Yes they did. They were just meant to be temporary shelter in place facilities

 

[jayR]

Cresson Kearny wrote the seminal Nuclear War Survival Skills in 1979 for Oakridge National Lab. It was updated in 1986. Haven't seen anything newer. It's 290 pages long.
https://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/Files/Pub57110.pdf

 

[Diamondback]

I think the big danger is if Putin or Xi thought that he was going out of power, and were going to be deposed, he might order the beginning of armagedon. Their hatred for us is real. Would either of them prefer to die and bring the USA along rather than lose power in his own society even without being conquered? I think so.

I think its wishful thinking to imagine that Putin or Xi would not have the power to send the nukes.

Anybody know what the official protocals are in Russia and China for sending their nukes?

Can't say about China but Russia is "Fail Deadly"--once the Dead Hand system is switched on, and I always assume it is, unless a "No" order is given at regular specific intervals the launches are automatic.

So even if Putin gets his long-overdue impaling on a Kremlin spire, unless someone with authority steps in, makes the next No Go transmission and the guy on the DH console follows that order, still Canned Sunshine time.

 

[The Heretic]

Of course they are two different people/cultures. But similar in that both cultures were authoritarian and totalitarian long before each became communist. Both spent years assassinating, imprisoning, and disappearing all potential competitors. Neither could expect to live long after a loss of power. The concept of rule of law has really never existed in either place. Leaders of both cultures have little regard for their own citizens.

Agreed - but I don't think Xi is as irrational as Putin, or as paranoid.

 

[wired]

The premise that Russia would use their nukes to stop a conventional war invasion is based on the assertion that the Russian military would obey Putin's orders to do so. Putin grows politically weaker by the day. It is an open question whether the Kremlin and the military would follow him to mutually assured destruction of the world, or whether they would overthrow him and ask NATO for terms.

Conversely, if Russia invades a NATO country, NATO will not sit back and allow that to happen, but NATO and the USA would not use nukes because they would not need to - unless Russia launched.

I think you vastly underestimate the desire of the Russian to maintain their territorial integrity . It is the reason for their Nuclear arsenal and any incursion into Russia or the part of the world they consider to be part of Russia whether we do or not would be dealt with nukes no matter who is in charge. The Russian, at least most, don't consider Putin to be unstable or dangerous. They see him as the man holding Russia together against an America hell bent on destroying their influence in their part of the world.

 

[The Heretic]

I think you vastly underestimate the desire of the Russian to maintain their territorial integrity . It is the reason for their Nuclear arsenal and any incursion into Russia or the part of the world they consider to be part of Russia whether we do or not would be dealt with nukes no matter who is in charge. The Russian, at least most, don't consider Putin to be unstable or dangerous. They see him as the man holding Russia together against an America hell bent on destroying their influence in their part of the world.

Maybe - but I hope I am not wrong and that there are some level headed people in the Kremlin who won't let the situation in Europe devolve into a nuclear WWIII - because if there aren't enough to prevent that, and it goes that far, we are truly up a fecal creek without a paddle.

 

[wired]

Maybe - but I hope I am not wrong and that there are some level headed people in the Kremlin who won't let the situation in Europe devolve into a nuclear WWIII - because if there aren't enough to prevent that, and it goes that far, we are truly up a fecal creek without a paddle.

Then keep NATO out of Russia. It's worked until now

 

[The Heretic]

Then keep NATO out of Russia. It's worked until now

That is more or less up to Russia; if Russia attacks a NATO country then NATO will respond, because the alternative is to let Russia takeover Europe.

 

[wired]

That is more or less up to Russia; if Russia attacks a NATO country then NATO will respond, because the alternative is to let Russia takeover Europe.

They don't have designs on NATO unless NATO does something stupid like admitting Ukraine.

 

[The Heretic]

They don't have designs on NATO unless NATO does something stupid like admitting Ukraine.

NATO under pressure to send troops after Germany deploys military

"It's a great opportunity for German-Canadian-British cooperation," one expert told Newsweek.

www.newsweek.com

 

[wired]

NATO under pressure to send troops after Germany deploys military

"It's a great opportunity for German-Canadian-British cooperation," one expert told Newsweek.

www.newsweek.com

Big difference between the Baltic States and Ukraine, Belorus, Moldova , Georgia etc which the Russians consider historically Russian in large part also due to the large number of ethnic Russians still living there since the breakup of the Soviet Union . The Baltic states have always been considered by the Russians to be more in the German and Polish dominion.

Admitting Ukraine to NATO would be tantamount to a declaration of war .