Is the new wave of gun owners making it an Elite Sport? Red Dots are my concern

[tacticalgunner]

I can't imagine why I would go to a place sponsored by a maker of plastic holsters to read about military optics. But back on topic: $450 is really at the low end of the scale when it comes to rifle sights.

SWAROVSKI OPTIK - Z8i Rifle Scope

So everything I am talking about is 1x optics, red dots specifically.

 

[pigiron]

THIS^^^^Is the proper attitude!

I have the Vortex Strikefire 2 and I like it a lot red/green, 7,000hr battery life, very easy to adjust and use, but it's heavy! I hate the weight! It's my only dot scope.
The Army taught me quick kill, so I don't need sights at all. That's why irons have always been satisfactory to me.

I've never cared for the big red blob covering the target when using illuminated red dot sights. They are as bad as the front bead on a Winchester 94. I much preferred peep sights on my Garand and M-14 with their fine windage and elevation knobs that let you maintain a consistent sight picture after adjusting for windage or distance unlike optical scopes with their fine over and under lines and which also make your crosshairs bobbing around with each heartbeat, twitch, or whatever painfully obvious. It's not like your point of aim is not bobbing with peeps too, but it's just not so disconcerting. Adjustable irons are fine until your eyes finally start to give out in your 40's.

Pace Col. Cooper but we did a lot of point and snap shooting training too by just indexing on the barrel with Garands and shotguns in the Corps way back in the mid-1960s.

 

[Goosebrown]

Great post!

 

[Sgt Nambu]

How in the world did you get a photo of Stomper?

 

[Pete F]

I rely on my BUIS, although I feel real silly calling it that. If I can't rely on them when my red dot/scope fails I could be in real trouble. I sent my brand new rear BUIS sight back to the manufacturer - who I won't name because of fear of being grouped in with the gun snobs. The first set wobbled and would not stay in place. They sent me a new set that they said was checked out before shipping by the customer service rep. It was just as bad and they left out the ball bearing that provides the tension/clicks required to stay in place and on target. I took the two apart and put the best parts together into one sight. I sent the rest back to the manufacturer (with a slightly mashed roll pin). They kept telling me that they were only back-up sights and really didn't matter. They sell their BUIS for more than $200.
My first experience with a red-dot was when a friend of a friend handed me their AR-15 with a cheap red-dot and I couldn't hit anything. He took it back and said that it was set up for him and I needed more practice. I then borrowed my friends .270 Winchester with a mid priced Bushnell and put a cloverleaf in a target at about 75 yards. The point is - find a red dot that fits you based on your preferences, not price.

 

[Tomahawk67]

I thought that was Bill Nye.

 

[pigiron]

How in the world did you get a photo of Stomper?
View attachment 381589

Are those glasses tactical?

 

[Basedgreaser]

Personally if im on a budget ide pick up a cheap sherlock magnifying glass and modify it to mount on a rail. YOU WOULDNT BELIEVE THE SIGHT PICTURE! Pick up a redsharpie and you can make a custom reticle to suit your needs everything together is about $15.00. Beat that budgeters

 

[tacticalgunner]

I've never cared for the big red blob covering the target when using illuminated red dot sights. They are as bad as the front bead on a Winchester 94. I much preferred peep sights on my Garand and M-14 with their fine windage and elevation knobs that let you maintain a consistent sight picture after adjusting for windage or distance unlike optical scopes with their fine over and under lines and which also make your crosshairs bobbing around with each heartbeat, twitch, or whatever painfully obvious. Not like it's not bobbing with peeps too, but it's just not so disconcerting. Peeps are fine until your eyes finally start to give out in your 40's.

Pace Col. Cooper but we did a lot of point and snap shooting training too with Garands and shotguns in the Corps way back in the mid-1960s.

First and more for everyone, let me clarify some things.
If adult me knew kid me was doing what i was doing, i would put a switch to my hind end, because i was the entitled brat making fun of the other kids..
2nd, I did not post this to justify my buys, i buy what i want.
3rd, Yes James, that plastic holster maker is not where i get opinions from nor listen too, but it kills me that 27K people subscribe to there opinions, even more, they and others do it on other group sites and forums of over 100K per site and spread their BS. This is why I posted this because its teaching people the wrong mindset of gun ownership and whats good and whats bad.
4th-I understand the use of iron sights, I qualified in the military at 200 yards like everyone else did. So great job to all of you that know how to shoot irons correctly. Back in my day stuff is valueable but as technogy and advancement come in, we have to change and advance to in modern warfare. However I also learned the use and value of a red dot sight. I love Aimpoint, EOTech and ACOGs and i know the difference. Up to a couple years ago, they were free and disposable to me at anytime.
5-Yes Batteries die, not the point of this convo.... Maintain your equipment.
6- I am not elite, don't care to be and apparently i have not described what i mean, i am honestly saying, that a big group of gun snobs are making hard for young people and people of lower incomes to stay away from the sport of shooting, which will shriek the people that continue to fight for our rights. We are loosing the fight everyday because the amount of people growing up with or around guns is shrinking because of the spread of the anti gun agenda, public education, and mostly, so so called experts that shame others for what they buy.
CPO out

 

[IronMonster]

When I want to impress someone standing at my safe I show them my $3500 AR with a $1500 Trijicon, the one that has never been fired and sits in its sock in the safe. (I know, I know... I kind of am that guy. I own a dozen rifles that I own simply because I want to own them ok?) When I want to go shoot I usually grab a couple of my $500-$700 AR's with $150 Holosuns (or just irons) and don't think twice about tossing them behind my seat and dragging them through the desert. I own maybe 20 AR's, a couple that with optics and accessory's are in that $4000-$5000 range. The rifle that is my "house gun". The one I am betting my life on if the need arises.... Its probably a $600-$700 rifle. A simple, solid and dependable rifle with basic sights and a mil spec trigger. When it matters thats what I want and I would take it every time over one with 3 lb trigger and $1500 optic (why would you want a fancy optic on a house gun?)

Personally I have never seen actual "elitist" shaming of a gun owner. I have run in several firearms circles and the only grief ever given to anyone was good natured ribbing. That being said there is mountains of crap sold that really has no business on anything other than a range toy. I think most folks buying it know full well its crap. In a crazy situation some of that crap probably gets pushed into a actual defense situation and 95% of the time it probably works fine. Does that mean you should stake your life on it? No... Its just odds and crap that usually works will still usually work. I would also much rather have a $300 rifle with a $50 optic on it than NO rifle.... even if its crap that has no business as a personal defense weapon its better than nothing.

But some things need to always work, Those things usually are expensive. Does that make them "elitist"? I don't think so, There will always be professional level gear in every hobby and sport. There will always be those who cant afford it and lust after it and those who don't really need it but buy it because they can.

 

[pigiron]

I would also much rather have a $300 rifle with a $50 optic on it than NO rifle

Getting back to the original post, if asked I would definitely recommend a Marlin .30-30 to a novice shooter for home or ranch defense and you can easily find a used one in perfect condition for $350. I'd also advise doing some plinking with a .22 first.

 

[11Charlie]

But some things need to always work, Those things usually are expensive.

I totally agree except when it comes to guns. If your talking tools then I buy the best, cheap don't last. When it comes to cheap AR's I will grab my S&W sport every time for reliability.

I think a lot of us rely on cheaper guns every day. Most of us carry a cheaper gun for our EDC and not the most expensive 1911 in the safe.

just my .02

 

[pigiron]

I qualified in the military at 200 yards like everyone else did.

Yes, but how good were you at the 500 yard line?

 

[11Charlie]

Yes, but how good were you at the 500 yard line?

What branch of the military qualifies at 500 yds? Furthest range we had in the Army was 300

 

[IronMonster]

I totally agree except when it comes to guns. If your talking tools then I buy the best, cheap don't last. When it comes to cheap AR's I will grab my S&W sport every time for reliability.

I think a lot of us rely on cheaper guns every day. Most of us carry a cheaper gun for our EDC and not the most expensive 1911 in the safe.

just my .02

I dont disagree for the most part.... And I talked about my house gun being "cheap" in comparison to my others.

I was more talking about the optics the OP was talking about. A Aimpoint or a Eotech or comparable thing is really the only thing that really should be on a "combat" rifle when it comes to red dots.

If its a range toy then its another matter.

 

[pigiron]

What branch of the military qualifies at 500 yds? Furthest range we had in the Army was 300

The old Marine Corps Known Distance Course with the M1 and then M14 was a 50 round course fired as 5 rds sitting slow fire 200 yards, 5rds kneeling slow fire 200 yds, 5 rds standing slow fire 200 yds, 10 rounds standing to sitting rapid fire in 60 seconds with a magazine change at 200 yds. 5 rds sitting slow fire at 300 yds, then 10 rounds standing to prone rapid fire at 300 yds. Finally 10 rounds slow fire prone at 500 yards.

My M16 training and "qualification" was OTJ.

 

[11Charlie]

The old Marine Corps Known Distance Course with the M1 and then M14 was a 50 round course fired as 5 rds sitting slow fire 200 yards, 5rds kneeling slow fire 200 yds, 5 rds standing slow fire 200 yds, 10 rounds standing to sitting rapid fire in 60 seconds with a magazine change at 200 yds. 5 rds sitting slow fire at 300 yds, then 10 rounds standing to prone rapid fire at 300 yds. Finally 10 rounds slow fire prone at 500 yards.

Cool I didn't know that. Thanks for explaining that to me

 

[CHLChris]

All the Vortex dots need to be turned on to be used, a button needs to be pressed. The Aimpoint PRO, the Trijicon MRO, and the new Sig Sauer Romeos all stay on or come on when moved. In my mind, this feature is imperative on a fighting rifle. Thus, I own and use Vortex dots on recreation rifles, but NOT on my fighting rifles.

 

[Diamondback]

Personally, I like to think of this game as having four tiers:
Starter - This is the "price is everything" segment. You might say "Baby's First ___," the entry level that's "better than nothing and will hold the line until you can afford better."
Value - This tier is the sweet-spot where price and quality intersect at best "bang for the buck."
Better - More capable than "Value," more affordable than "Best." A stepping-stone as you trade up and relegate your Starter and Value items to range-toys and second/third-line roles.
Best - "Mil-Spec Monkeys" or better. The Gucci stuff with NSN's and spare-no-expense-and-damn-the-grocery-bills price tags to match.

 

[Diamondback]

I've never once heard anyone tell someone that who wants to protect his family and property not to buy a gun unless it's made by this company or that company, and when you do, you must get a 450,00 red dot optic on top of it.

But then I would never in a million years recommend to someone with a family who has obviously never owned a high-powered rifle before to get an AR in the first place.

I have--ARFCOM has one flavor of snooty, and the refugees who formed M4C have a different culture of preferred "If It Ain't ___ It Ain't CRAP!" brands, largely because those are brands the mods either work for or sell. (All Gucci's: KAC, BCM, Sionics, Colt...)