Is the new wave of gun owners making it an Elite Sport? Red Dots are my concern

[Ghost Spear]

Lets first start off with, this is not a converstaion about iron sights, or use there of...
Let's talk Gear for guns and let's talk Red Dot Optics fighting rifles. As we all are aware, there is a huge gap in the pricing vs quality of optics, there is also now a culture that if it does not cost 750 plus, its garbage.

Well, is that true?

One of my biggest concerns as a 2nd Amendment supporter and one who encourages every citizen to own a gun for some reason or another is, are we pricing out the average person out of gun ownership, merely by promoting if you don't have the best, its garbage.

The worst saying ever came up with is "Buy once, Cry Once". That's horrible. Telling a guy that wants to protect his family and property not to buy a gun unless it's made by this company or that company, and when you do, you must get a 450,00 optic on top of it, oh, and now you need to get trained (later conversation) , well now you just took food from his kids mouth. Great job jack hole and now he is scared that a budget AR and a decent optic is garbage and he is running from gun ownership vs putting a foot into it because his new thought is, "well, without a gun, I am not protecting my family, but with a gun we can afford, I am not protecting my family, so why do I need a gun?" We are currently making the elite the only ones that can afford safety and it's not from the manufactures, it's from the people who justifies their rifles/optics cost to perceived quality. With that said, the gun culture has made it a playground of Nike vs Cuga shoes from the 80's. If you know what I am talking about, you will understand, if you don't, it was the classic elementary school 3rd grade playground fight (3rd grade is when people become materialistic and economical clicks establish, you know, when rich Johnny won't play with poor Billy anymore because of how much money, or how big his house is or whatever, that leads me to the Cuga, Cuga was a brand of shoe that was bought from like a Payless shoe store or whatever. Cuga's lasted just as long as or longer than Nike, but a Nike shoe was 2 times as much. Nike kids would make fun of the Cuga kids for the brand, usually in ways of, "Nike is faster that Cuga" or: you can play basketball better in Nike than Cuga", well so on and so on. No, Nike was not better, on the playground than a Cuga shoe, it was me and the other kids making fun of the others because they could not afford or their parents were not going to waste money on a playground shoe that would eventually fall apart anyway. So that leads me to the Nike vs value brand.

Now, I have tested and tried a bunch of products and these are my favorites for the cost (Under 500.00) and some are what I run. So debate me, agree, I don't care as this is my opinion piece.


Red Dots:


Aimpoint PRO Up until a couple of years ago, this optic was only for LE/Mil. You could not buy it, but now, you can, and they are great at 440.00 bucks out the door. I currently run this optic on one of my AR's. Why?

-3 year battery life/30,000 hrs. You an literally leave it on all the time and not have to fumble with controls to get the run up and ready, one less step in engaging the target.

-Clear lens

-Clear rear lens cover. Best part of a red dot is you can keep both eyes open and engage targets, and with the cap clear, you dots always on, you're up on target without fumbling with the caps.

Cons: Up next to the barrier of cost. You get the Aimpoint chip on your shoulder, single color red dot


Vortex Line Up


Strike Fire and Strike Fire 2 I have a love hate for this product, but overall, you can't beat it. I run a SF1 on my Mk9 PCC AR. At 180.00 usually for the new SF2, it can't be beat.

Pros: Red/Green dot, mimics my Aimpoint. NVG Capable, Vortex warranty, 6000 hour battery life. Love the controls. Optional screw in 2x magnifier

Con: 4 MOA dot, kind of big for engaging distant targets, but being on my PCC, I am limited to 100 yards and in.


SPARC 2 Its great, it's a step better than the SF1/2 due to size and 2 MOA dot. Cost is great at 190.00 average.

Pros: 2 MOA, NVG Capable, Vortex warranty, 12 hour auto shut off to combat the battery life.

Cons: 300 Hour battery life, 12 hour auto shut off (I find this bad because combatively, you don't want this to auto shut off if you're on mission.), single color dot.


SPARC AR Same as the SPARC 2, but one additional Pro: AAA Battery



Sig Romeo 5 Man, what is Sig doing invading the red dot community they way they have? But I am glad they have. I ran my buddies AR with a Romeo 5 and wow, great optic, a little smaller tube than I like for field of vision, and due to that, I pulled the unit back a little on the gun to match my eye relief, But I really like its value and performance at 170.00

Pro: 2 MOA, NV Capable, 50,000 hr battery life with MOTAC.

Con: Single color dot, really compact tube, I don't love the topside controls.


Things I totally hated and did not add:


Bushnell TRS: Looks like crap and has a terrible 3 dot MOA, the Amber-Bright lens has a terrible tent to it.

Primary Arms Micro Red Dot: Its not bad, I just did not like the topside controls, the older ones had a terrible waterproofing, but they have improved.




Any and All Prism's because they are not actually red dots.

I think you make a good point. Some people get scared of getting an AR cause they feel like they can't afford a decent one (which isn't true). I think people need to know that when people are saying "this or that" is best that generally we are talking about a tier 1 performance product ( running PEQ-15s) over a home defense/self defense quality( vortex sparc) which are wildly different and shouldn't even be weighed against each other.

I think it's important to assess what you are using the weapon for and approach it from that direction. Some of us can afford to run Supressed SBRs for home defense that doesn't mean that if you can't that you should go gunless. Hell thats not a solution that helps anyone.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mygrainman]

I currently have a Vortex Spark AR that I got used for $125. It's as good a red dot as I'll ever need. Don't see how an aimpoint or trijicon could improve on it. It puts the little red dot where the bullet hits. past that the others do nothing worth $300-$1000 more.
Red dots are great, and as long as you have a solid mount, the clarity isn't horrible and it will hold zero, something like the Field Sport that has some great reviews and can be had for $20 is just fine for the casual shooter. Amazon.com : FieldSport Micro Red Dot Sight, Precision Red Dot Only No Green : Sports & Outdoors

If you use a red dot as intended, with both eyes open, clarity isn't much of an issue... in fact you can keep the front lens cap on the optic and be just fine. At that point spending an extra $500+ more seems a little silly. Electronics at any price point fail... it's not just a matter of quality control, it's murphy's law. Aimpoint or Sightmark doesn't matter... run BUIS! Warranty and guarantees are worthless at the moment of failure.

The tactical elietist (see arfdotcom) are a bunch of mall ninjas that put others down to help themselves justify thier rediculous spending. Like a bunch of women and their closets full of Lois Vuitton, and Versace that spend thier evenings guarding thier bling from anything that might damage or soil them, while laughing at the girls eating nachos and actually having fun because they didn't have to mortgage thier house to get dressed... The Tactical Elitists have to fill thier safes with only the latest custom builds with Top of the line everything. These guns only leave the custom fitted pelican cases long enough for everybody at the range to see it and hear how quiet it is with the new suppressor... but they do have every component and what they overpaid for it, down to the $75 unobtainium mag release spring proudly listed on their forums.

My budget home built Anderson AR topped with a Spark AR will get me laughed away from the cool kid table, but I know I can drag it through the brush, shoot it in the rain, and even feed it cheap ball ammo, and it will keep spitting it out, sub moa even. Like Iron Monster said... it's cheap, but quality where it counts, and it's the first one i'd reach for in a pickle.

I'm not knocking good expensive gear. I have a couple builds that might even earn me a seat at the cool kid table, but I haggled and traded up one piece at a time, never paying near retail for any of it, and they are still works in progress. Just sayin' function over form. If it works it works. I'm not too proud to wear the off brand shoes. Usually what you pay for, after a point, is just the name and bragging rights.

 

[Tomahawk67]

Is this thread descending into a PSA is just as good as KAC ?

 

[Diamondback]

Is this thread descending into a PSA is just as good as KAC ?

I'd say more "Horses For Courses." (See what I did there? Both Anderson and Colt have horses in their logos...)

 

[teflon6string]

...
Red dots are useless appendages when your battery dies, and I've had that happen more than once.

Or a bent scope (don't ask me how that happened). That's why I like zeroed iron sights in addition to optics that can be removed quickly without special wrenches. Gave my son an AR (M&P) with flip up sights a few years back. Broke my heart a little when he removed them.

 

[slimmer13]

This same subject could be discussed for every sport/activity that uses gear, and generally, it's not an issue for new people. Whether it's fishing, paintball, golf, whatever, you don't worry much about your gear until your not new anymore, and have some knowledge and experience. New people don't know enough to know what they don't know. New people aren't on ARFcom, perusing posts for advice. That comes later. Non issue IMO

 

[HuckleberryFun]

Every sport/interest/hobby has its "elitists" who always have to have the very best equipment/toys and who sneer, either openly or secretly, at those who don't. It's human nature (at least among a certain type of human). Yes, you can try to buy your way to the top of whatever ladder you're climbing, but I'm most impressed by those who do it via skill rather than hardware.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I'll post my thought ... then back out 'cause I know really next to nothing 'bout Red Dots and whatnot.

I worry that our love affair with technology has in some cases with some folks become a way of "buying skill" so to speak.
The idea that you must have a ABC brand gun with a XYZ brand optic or accessory to make hits at whatever given range and the like is also troubling to me.
People have for hundreds of years fed and defended themselves without red dots , lasers , or plastic high tech anything...

And yes I do understand the need for advancement in gear and changing ideas to suit said gear.
But I am against the idea of using the item without learning or mastering the basic skill , the item helps with , first.

Note I am not saying that we all need to go back to flintlocks and iron sights , but I am saying that folks can make hits and compete without having the latest and greatest or best made equipment.... If they take the time to learn the basics of shooting , hunting or whatever.... and continue to practice those skills.

And now I'll bow out of here ....
Andy

 

[HuckleberryFun]

I'll post my thought ... then back out 'cause I know really next to nothing 'bout Red Dots and whatnot.

I worry that our love affair with technology has in some cases with some folks become a way of "buying skill" so to speak.
The idea that you must have a ABC brand gun with a XYZ brand optic or accessory to make hits at whatever given range and the like is also troubling to me.
People have for hundreds of years fed and defended themselves without red dots , lasers , or plastic high tech anything...

And yes I do understand the need for advancement in gear and changing ideas to suit said gear.
But I am against the idea of using the item without learning or mastering the basic skill , the item helps with , first.

Note I am not saying that we all need to go back to flintlocks and iron sights , but I am saying that folks can make hits and compete without having the latest and greatest or best made equipment.... If they take the time to learn the basics of shooting , hunting or whatever.... and continue to practice those skills.

And now I'll bow out of here ....
Andy

@AndyinEverson makes some good points, but there has always been bleeding edge early adopters even back in Ye Olden Days.
I picture the first guy with a fancy new percussion cap rifle sneering at the guy holding the now suddenly obsolete flintlock.
"Gotta get a Hawken man, it's the only thing to let you hold off 20 Injuns all by your lonesome..."

 

[H2O MAN]

I prefer an Aimpoint with a 2MOA dot, and an EOTech with a 1 MOA center dot.
Buying them used has allowed me to run high quality RDS on more guns.

 

[Basedgreaser]

but NOT on my fighting rifles.

What qualifies as a "fighting" rifle? Cuz this is what comes to my mind ...

 

[CHLChris]

What qualifies as a "fighting" rifle?

I'm assuming you're being humourous.

But for the record, a fighting rifle, in what I am meaning by my post, is any long arm that one sets up to be used on that day in which we are attacked and have the opportunity to grab a rifle. For me, I am including an AR-15 (with Aimpoint, light, sling, suppressor) for me and a Sub2000 gen2 (with DeltaPoint, light, laser, sling, suppressor) for my wife.

I suppose someone could use a 91/30 with bayo affixed...

 

[Basedgreaser]

I'm assuming you're being humourous.

I suppose someone could use a 91/30 with bayo affixed...

I was, im either in a light mood or light headed (never learned the difference) and to make a smaaall correction due to the angle of the picture, its a 1903 springfield

 

[No_Regerts]

I think the gun industry has erroded its own middle class of product. There is a huge market for inexpensive guns. Ruger American Rifles, Stevens Rifles, any number of $550 ARs, most polymer framed pistols.

Then, there are the super expensive guns like Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Noveske and the rest of the $2000 ARs.

Companies that made quality guns are having to decide if they will eliminate entire product lines because they are too expensive for one crowd and not high-speed enough for the high dollar folks.

 

[Diamondback]

I think the gun industry has erroded its own middle class of product. There is a huge market for inexpensive guns. Ruger American Rifles, Stevens Rifles, any number of $550 ARs, most polymer framed pistols.

Then, there are the super expensive guns like Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Noveske and the rest of the $2000 ARs.

Companies that made quality guns are having to decide if they will eliminate entire product lines because they are too expensive for one crowd and not high-speed enough for the high dollar folks.

But again, how much of that is the "Gear Queer" snobbery from Internet Commando Wannabes? I mean, I can see somebody who's Been Over There or part of the Thin Blue Line preferring to stick with things that work from around the workplace and talking those up, but...

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

i run strikefire2 and sparc AR... theyre great. absolutely nothing wrong with them.

 

[No_Regerts]

But again, how much of that is the "Gear Queer" snobbery from Internet Commando Wannabes? I mean, I can see somebody who's Been Over There or part of the Thin Blue Line preferring to stick with things that work from around the workplace and talking those up, but...

It spans across all types of guns. I think the shooter has to think about their own abilities and decide if their performance will actually improve with more expensive equipment. You see it a lot in hunting rifles. I've seen guys who get their animal every year with a beat to crap sporterized Mauser. I've also seen the guy who buys a $3000 ultralight rifle while carrying an extra 50 pounds around the middle.

 

[HuckleberryFun]

I think the gun industry has erroded its own middle class of product. There is a huge market for inexpensive guns. Ruger American Rifles, Stevens Rifles, any number of $550 ARs, most polymer framed pistols.

Then, there are the super expensive guns like Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Noveske and the rest of the $2000 ARs.

Companies that made quality guns are having to decide if they will eliminate entire product lines because they are too expensive for one crowd and not high-speed enough for the high dollar folks.

The formerly mighty middle of American society being hollowed out over the past few decades? There's not enough middles left to buy the middlin' priced products? Just askin'.

 

[Diamondback]

It spans across all types of guns. I think the shooter has to think about their own abilities and decide if their performance will actually improve with more expensive equipment. You see it a lot in hunting rifles. I've seen guys who get their animal every year with a beat to crap sporterized Mauser. I've also seen the guy who buys a $3000 ultralight rifle while carrying an extra 50 pounds around the middle.

Some of us need lightweight rifles 'cuz we're too soggy and out of shape... LOL I was supposed to start a daily exercise regimen including a half-hour's jog last week, then the damn heatwave hit...

EDIT: "Lightweight rifle"... says the guy whose "carbine" weighs as much as an M16 and "pistol" weighs as much as an M4.

 

[Diamondback]

Kowalski: Or need light rifles to offset all the heavy Tactical Troll crap being hung off 'em... light, bipod, VFG, spare mag carrier, optic, magnifier, NVD, hood ornament, Swiss army knife, kitchen sink...