Is the new wave of gun owners making it an Elite Sport? Red Dots are my concern

[No_Regerts]

The formerly mighty middle of American society being hollowed out over the past few decades? There's not enough middles left to buy the middlin' priced products? Just askin'.

Ruger is a prime example. They have discontinued a big chunk of their M77 line, which was never an expensive rifle to begin with. Instead of $550 M77s, they are selling $375 Ruger Americans.

Sig had to come out with a polymer gun to keep with the market. People will buy a $500 P320 over a $875 P226. BUT, slap a Legion stamp on it and price it at $1200 and people buy it again. Go figure.

 

[pigiron]

People will buy a $500 P320 over a $875 P226.

Now that the Pentagon has adopted the P320 as its standard issue sidearm across all the services people are going to be buying a whole heck of a lot of them too. SIG will probably even eat into Glock police sales. That removable "firing system is the gun" design along with optional grip frames for girls is friggin' brilliant.

 

[Diamondback]

Now that the Pentagon has adopted the P320 as its standard issue sidearm across all the services people are going to be buying a whole heck of a lot of them too. SIG will probably even eat into Glock police sales. That removable "firing system is the gun" design along with optional grip frames for girls is friggin' brilliant.

Hell, if they can get a single-action-only FCG and a 1911-ish grip, and chamber it in .45ACP *I* might consider one... then again I bet Sig's gonna add a MilSpec Premium onto the price "because the suckers will pay it and we can" just like KAC.

 

[Joe Link]

Maybe I'm in a different usergroup than you guys, with different privileges--I tried from a different browser where I don't have a login cookie and it prompted for user/pass. @Joe Link @Kruejl @AndyinEverson any idea what's going on there, mods?

@Kruejl , I am opted-in--maybe it's a Supporter Only thing or something.

Yep, it's in the Supporting Member section.

 

[41mag]

As geezeritis invades my formerly pristine godlike physique, incipient fixed-income reality has infected my pocketbook. TRS decent performer for its retail cost. YMMV

 

[titsonritz]

The tactical elietist (see arfdotcom) are a bunch of mall ninjas that put others down to help themselves justify thier rediculous spending. Like a bunch of women and their closets full of Lois Vuitton, and Versace that spend thier evenings guarding thier bling from anything that might damage or soil them, while laughing at the girls eating nachos and actually having fun because they didn't have to mortgage thier house to get dressed... The Tactical Elitists have to fill thier safes with only the latest custom builds with Top of the line everything. These guns only leave the custom fitted pelican cases long enough for everybody at the range to see it and hear how quiet it is with the new suppressor... but they do have every component and what they overpaid for it, down to the $75 unobtainium mag release spring proudly listed on their forums.

I was unaware justification was a requirement.

As far has this thread's topic goes, personally, I think it is the other way around. People buy el-cheapo red dots and try to justify in their minds it is just a good as an Aimpoint (believe what you want, it is not). I believe it is a waste of money to buy cheap optics, that said one does not need to pay full retail price either. Waiting for top sales such as Black Friday, the 4th, etc. is the time to pick up spendy items, sometimes up to 30% off.

 

[titsonritz]

Hell, if they can get a single-action-only FCG and a 1911-ish grip, and chamber it in .45ACP *I* might consider one... then again I bet Sig's gonna add a MilSpec Premium onto the price "because the suckers will pay it and we can" just like KAC.

So only suckers buy KAC?

 

[Kruel J]

@Kruejl , I am opted-in--maybe it's a Supporter Only thing or something.

Yes, supporting member section.

 

[Tomahawk67]

So only suckers buy KAC?

Only suckers buy KAC off ebay !!

 

[titsonritz]

Only suckers buy KAC off ebay !!

lol, truth.

 

[whiskeybill]

There have always been the "Haves' & Have Nots" in the shooting sports. I grew up learning and shooting on off the shelf rifles my Dad bought, and a good friend (and his brothers) had some real nice rifles that his Grandfather had built custom. I didn't have a lick of envy, and I could take game just as well as my buddy (and we're still buddies after 50 years). There have always been the guys that shot Palma matches at Perry as far back as I could remember, and I never knew anyone with a rifle that could shoot 1000 yards. Now I have one, and it's a budget gun (under a grand total). I just don't care to get caught up in equipment races, and if you think you really need to have fun by spending the kids tuition savings on it, then have at it. I'm not saying I haven't spent my fair share on firearms, but I don't get caught up in the latest and greatest, either. I have alot of respect for folks that can still shoot peep or iron sights well. My old eyes just don't cut it that well anymore.

 

[NWMA]

We all have different needs and circumstances.

Not everyone needs high end optics. But plenty of people do need them, and plenty more want them. And there's nothing wrong with that. America is and should be more about WANT than NEED. I only NEED so much car to get to work...but if I can afford better, I will get what I WANT.

Cheap equipment is better than no equipment. There are plenty of budget options that are good quality and good value. But there is reasonable value and there is trash. Trash is never a good value.

Budget options can absolutely be "good enough" for your needs. But to say that a $100 optic is just as good as a $500 is wishful thinking. Glass clarity tends to be decent across red dots (it's more of an issue with scopes), but the quality of electronics differs. Battery life differs. Ruggedness differs greatly.

I will agree that plenty of Gucci equipment is overpriced, but there are good reasons that an Aimpoint Micro costs more than a Holosun. Your Holosun may do great and work perfectly for your needs...but to argue it is just as good sounds like a justification for buying cheaper equipment. Why do you feel the need to justify that choice to anyone?

I don't believe that we need to justify any choice to any one but ourselves. I don't care what others use. But I do roll my eyes when I'm told that a Vortex is just as good as a Leupold. The Vortex may be a better VALUE to you, and its performance may be good enough. Nothing wrong with that and you don't need to justify that choice to anyone. And if they look down their nose at you, you can tell them to $$$$ off.

It's good to have choices, from low end to high end. But let's be honest with ourselves...low end is not as good as high end. That goes for virtually every single product that exists. And I don't think it's snobbish to recognize that. (It Is snobbish to denigrate someone's choice...but if you start the conversation with "cheap is just as good as expensive", maybe you have it coming)

Not trying to argue, just my humble opinion.

 

[Diamondback]

So only suckers buy KAC?

No, I respect the heck out of their work... just think they're a bit overpriced. As you yourself said slightly differently, only suckers pay Full Retail...

 

[crstrode]

People will buy a $500 P320 over a $875 P226.

The money they saved better go toward a plate carrier in case they drop that 320!

 

[albin25]

Shoot what you can afford to shoot, try to buy quality not quantity.
That old saw about, "The joy of quality remains long after the price is forgotten" is only true to a certain point.

If your friends/acquaintances are so classless that they make you feel second-rate because of the cost the latest and greatest is out of your comfort zone...shop around for better friends.

If you're feeling inadequate or jealous because someone has something you can't afford, get your head on straight...
...Maybe your kids have nicer dirt-bikes, a bigger college fund and straighter teeth than theirs do

 

[Mygrainman]

I was unaware justification was a requirement.

Have you met a wife?...

justify to themselves... same mental glitch that makes a person watch, or request a review from, Hickok 45 or Nutnfancy etc. even though they already own it. Either thier simply trying to avoid buyers remorse or it's much deeper...
When you spend a bunch of money on something, you want as much out of it as you can get. Including the release of dopamine your brain gets when it receives a "like" or positive response on social media. It's extremely addicting and it doesn't just effect teenagers. Most people are addicted and don't even realize it.
I am.

Like alcoholics.. there are happy drunks and angry drunks. You become a "Tactical Elitist" when you start belittling the products, and people that use them. I assume there is a similar effect in the brain of an ^$$hole when they belittle what they consider inferior.

Personally I get the most satisfaction out of finding the best bang for my buck. Like Matrix Arms Handguards. 6061 T6, made in USA, and very cool looking. got them on 2 builds... and $64 for a 15" keymod! My Centurion CMR rail is sleeker, more finely machined, and has built in QD... but is that really worth $200+ more retail? SHTF it has 0 advantage. There are some cases that you can't get around shelling out to get the best, but I actually feel embarrassed admitting I paid full retail for a name brand item.

All that said, I am just as guilty as the next guy. While most of my high end stuff came from clearances and bartering. I did admittedly overpay for my VSeven stuff because I thought it was cool. I had never heard of them at the time of purchase, but after learning about them, now I'm a bit of a fanboy. After I bought it did I seek justification? Yep. In fact I'm going to post a pic of my unnecessarily blinged out with name brand parts AR pistol right now.

 

[Mygrainman]

No, I respect the heck out of their work... just think they're a bit overpriced. As you yourself said slightly differently, only suckers pay Full Retail...

Case in point... The US DOD.

 

[EPS]

Lets first start off with, this is not a converstaion about iron sights, or use there of...
Let's talk Gear for guns and let's talk Red Dot Optics fighting rifles. As we all are aware, there is a huge gap in the pricing vs quality of optics, there is also now a culture that if it does not cost 750 plus, its garbage.

Well, is that true?

One of my biggest concerns as a 2nd Amendment supporter and one who encourages every citizen to own a gun for some reason or another is, are we pricing out the average person out of gun ownership, merely by promoting if you don't have the best, its garbage.

The worst saying ever came up with is "Buy once, Cry Once". That's horrible. Telling a guy that wants to protect his family and property not to buy a gun unless it's made by this company or that company, and when you do, you must get a 450,00 optic on top of it, oh, and now you need to get trained (later conversation) , well now you just took food from his kids mouth. Great job jack hole and now he is scared that a budget AR and a decent optic is garbage and he is running from gun ownership vs putting a foot into it because his new thought is, "well, without a gun, I am not protecting my family, but with a gun we can afford, I am not protecting my family, so why do I need a gun?" We are currently making the elite the only ones that can afford safety and it's not from the manufactures, it's from the people who justifies their rifles/optics cost to perceived quality. With that said, the gun culture has made it a playground of Nike vs Cuga shoes from the 80's. If you know what I am talking about, you will understand, if you don't, it was the classic elementary school 3rd grade playground fight (3rd grade is when people become materialistic and economical clicks establish, you know, when rich Johnny won't play with poor Billy anymore because of how much money, or how big his house is or whatever, that leads me to the Cuga, Cuga was a brand of shoe that was bought from like a Payless shoe store or whatever. Cuga's lasted just as long as or longer than Nike, but a Nike shoe was 2 times as much. Nike kids would make fun of the Cuga kids for the brand, usually in ways of, "Nike is faster that Cuga" or: you can play basketball better in Nike than Cuga", well so on and so on. No, Nike was not better, on the playground than a Cuga shoe, it was me and the other kids making fun of the others because they could not afford or their parents were not going to waste money on a playground shoe that would eventually fall apart anyway. So that leads me to the Nike vs value brand.

Now, I have tested and tried a bunch of products and these are my favorites for the cost (Under 500.00) and some are what I run. So debate me, agree, I don't care as this is my opinion piece.


Red Dots:


Aimpoint PRO Up until a couple of years ago, this optic was only for LE/Mil. You could not buy it, but now, you can, and they are great at 440.00 bucks out the door. I currently run this optic on one of my AR's. Why?

-3 year battery life/30,000 hrs. You an literally leave it on all the time and not have to fumble with controls to get the run up and ready, one less step in engaging the target.

-Clear lens

-Clear rear lens cover. Best part of a red dot is you can keep both eyes open and engage targets, and with the cap clear, you dots always on, you're up on target without fumbling with the caps.

Cons: Up next to the barrier of cost. You get the Aimpoint chip on your shoulder, single color red dot


Vortex Line Up


Strike Fire and Strike Fire 2 I have a love hate for this product, but overall, you can't beat it. I run a SF1 on my Mk9 PCC AR. At 180.00 usually for the new SF2, it can't be beat.

Pros: Red/Green dot, mimics my Aimpoint. NVG Capable, Vortex warranty, 6000 hour battery life. Love the controls. Optional screw in 2x magnifier

Con: 4 MOA dot, kind of big for engaging distant targets, but being on my PCC, I am limited to 100 yards and in.


SPARC 2 Its great, it's a step better than the SF1/2 due to size and 2 MOA dot. Cost is great at 190.00 average.

Pros: 2 MOA, NVG Capable, Vortex warranty, 12 hour auto shut off to combat the battery life.

Cons: 300 Hour battery life, 12 hour auto shut off (I find this bad because combatively, you don't want this to auto shut off if you're on mission.), single color dot.


SPARC AR Same as the SPARC 2, but one additional Pro: AAA Battery



Sig Romeo 5 Man, what is Sig doing invading the red dot community they way they have? But I am glad they have. I ran my buddies AR with a Romeo 5 and wow, great optic, a little smaller tube than I like for field of vision, and due to that, I pulled the unit back a little on the gun to match my eye relief, But I really like its value and performance at 170.00

Pro: 2 MOA, NV Capable, 50,000 hr battery life with MOTAC.

Con: Single color dot, really compact tube, I don't love the topside controls.


Things I totally hated and did not add:


Bushnell TRS: Looks like crap and has a terrible 3 dot MOA, the Amber-Bright lens has a terrible tent to it.

Primary Arms Micro Red Dot: Its not bad, I just did not like the topside controls, the older ones had a terrible waterproofing, but they have improved.




Any and All Prism's because they are not actually red dots.

Wow that was a long one so long I didn't read the whole thing all I got to say is there are plenty of dead gang banger 's in the cemetery killed by a $100 .380 pistol with no red dot on it at all lol oh well life goes on for the rest of us I don't care how much you paid for your gun and gear if you can't use it it's useless THERE IS TRAINED AND UNTRAINED who do think wins the trained guy with the .380 or the clown with the $1000 gun and $880 red dot that he doesn't know how to turn on mmmmmmmm

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Back in high school in 1965 we had a rifle club that did matches. Being from the poor side of the tracks, my three buddies and I spent about $90 each on some Remington 513T .22 target rifles. The competition from the rich side of the tracks spent $350 on a Winchester 52D. The Winchester never won a match, and it never beat any of our 513Ts. So much for more expensive being better.

We also went snow skiing in our jeans, with our wool coats, on wooden skis. We had just as much fun (probably more) as the people with $1500 worth of special clothing and equipment.

My dad used a fly rod that probably cost about $10 from Montgomery Wards to fish places like the Carson River for cutthroats. I would head upstream first. My older brother would follow me after maybe 30 minutes, then dad would come along last. He always caught more fish than we did, and did it out of the same water we had both just fished.

I have to laugh these days when I head over to Maupin, and I pause and watch the fly fishermen on the Deschutes. There they stand in $500 waders, with a $1000 fly rod, flailing away without a clue how to cast, how to present a dry fly, or where to present it.

The world is full of posers who have been told by some salesman that they really need the latest and greatest equipment in order to be an expert at whatever activity it is that they are presently temporarily infatuated with. Good enough is really good enough. If your skills and knowledge don't allow you to take advantage of the nuanced "better-ness" of a more expensive piece of equipment then you are simply throwing money away and looking stupid in the process.

I will pay more for durability and quality materials if it is a piece of equipment I plan to use for the rest of my life. But I have a Vortex scope on my deer rifle, partly because my old eyes can't use iron sights anymore, but mainly because a 1" group at 100 yards is good enough to kill a deer with. I've had the same Buck 110 pocket knife for 30 years. That's about $2 a year. That's a case where quality is really more economical. It's also a case where I don't want to scrimp on quality where my life might depend on an item not breaking.

But you folks do whatever you like as far as expensive equipment. I do reserve the right to point and laugh though.

 

[Tomahawk67]

Moral of this story is who really give a frack what other people do , say , think or imply, wether it's uphill or down. If you like cheap stuff good for you , if you like expensive good for you. It just doesn't matter.