Other State Good Guy with a gun ends church shooting.

[bbbass]

With a drawn shotgun pointed in their direction by a guy who already had intentions... Nearly 3 yards away.

These people were dead already. Everyone's actions helped to stop continued bloodshed. Nobody was in 'error' in their reactions. Guy wasn't killed because he made any mistakes. Nobody is Rambo Ready in all situations.

We can refuse to take any lessons from the individual actions in the guise of not criticizing heroic actions, or we can be a bit more practical. I'm not criticizing the fellow. Just saying that we should be able to learn what works and what doesn't.

It's not necessary to be Rambo Ready, as you so snarkily put it. One only has to admit that you can't beat a guy to the draw when he already has a shotgun up and pointed your direction. The instinct is to do something, he stood up.. mistake... a criticism not of him, but of his choice. He then paused his draw in the middle when he realized the shotgun was pointed at him. Might it not have been better to wait a few more seconds before reacting? Perhaps the gunman may have turned away, allowing the defender to perform a "stealth" draw. It could have saved him while still saving others. There is no way to know. But you don't believe we should be thinking about things like that???

"Never draw against a drawn gun" John C.
"You cannot beat a guy that has a drop on you" John C.
"A defender must wait his turn to draw" John C.

 

[Geardo]

I don't know that there is any way they could have reacted quicker although I'm sure they were a little on edge because they guy was wearing a hooded trenchcoat at a church service and clearly looked out of place.

The guy who put him down took one very well placed shot under a lot of stress. That takes a lot of training a commitment.

The first guy that got blasted was very slow, and didn't move. Lookes like he was drawing from behind his back? Hip or appendix would have been faster. The draw from the second guy was fast, but started late. If they would have drawn at the same time, or subtly before the guy whipped out the shotty, maybe all deaths could have been avoided.

Not trying to disparage the dead. He showed incredible courage and died a hero. Just my intepretation so we can all do better.

 

[drstrangelove]

The first guy that got blasted was very slow, and didn't move. Lookes like he was drawing from behind his back? Hip or appendix would have been faster. The draw from the second guy was fast, but started late. If they would have drawn at the same time, or subtly before the guy whipped out the shotty, maybe all deaths could have been avoided.

Not trying to disparage the dead. He showed incredible courage and died a hero. Just my intepretation so we can all do better.

He died in church doing an honorable thing. Instant halo and wings.

 

[bbbass]

The draw from the second guy was fast, but started late.

Who do you think drew second? I couldn't tell. The black gentleman that got shot was a church deacon that had just served communion according to his daughter that was there when it happened. Nothing I read mentioned that fellow being armed.

 

[EHJ]

It's not necessary to be Rambo Ready, as you so snarkily put it.

Sorry you took it that way. No snark intended.
I fully understand training. Fully. I also know what happens to your brain and body the second someone - unexpectedly - draws and bears down on you from 10 feet away. There is NO comparison. Aside from live-fire drills in military training - nobody in a simulator, or all the dry fire practice in the world can prepare someone for this type of encounter. A massive adrenaline hit and dump can't be fully appreciated until it happens.

 

[User 1234]

How did the murderer sneak a shotgun into church?

 

[bbbass]

Sorry you took it that way. No snark intended.
I fully understand training. Fully. I also know what happens to your brain and body the second someone - unexpectedly - draws and bears down on you from 10 feet away. There is NO comparison. Aside from live-fire drills in military training - nobody in a simulator, or all the dry fire practice in the world can prepare someone for this type of encounter. A massive adrenaline hit and dump can't be fully appreciated until it happens.

Not sure what your point is...

 

[bbbass]

How did the murderer sneak a shotgun into church?

Under a trenchcoat... that is why he seemed suspicious to those that were there.

 

[etrain16]

How did the murderer sneak a shotgun into church?

Looks like he was wearing a long jacket. Wouldn't have been that difficult to do. I've done greeter work at churches for years. You aren't looking for weapons or patting folks down. And long coats, this time of year, are pretty common.

 

[EHJ]

Not sure what your point is...

People tend to bubblegum their pants when faced with an armed man holding a shotgun on them about to fire.
No civilian I know has any idea what to anticipate in a situation like that. Not just from the idea of being to slow to draw - but the entire idea of actually shooting another person immediately. A moral person will tend to hesitate - no matter the necessity or immediacy.
Nobody is born with a trigger finger.

Lol [Bubblegum] Ok, my bad.

 

[Geardo]

Who do you think drew second? I couldn't tell. The black gentleman that got shot was a church deacon that had just served communion according to his daughter that was there when it happened. Nothing I read mentioned that fellow being armed.

The guy that made the kill shot on the perp. He drew fast, but started late from what I can see.

 

[bbbass]

People tend to bubblegum their pants when faced with an armed man holding a shotgun on them about to fire.
No civilian I know has any idea what to anticipate in a situation like that. Not just from the idea of being to slow to draw - but the entire idea of actually shooting another person immediately. A moral person will tend to hesitate - no matter the necessity or immediacy.
Nobody is born with a trigger finger.

You see "sch!tting" their pants. I see freezing while the gun is you until you get a chance to draw.

Perhaps no civilian that "you know" has any idea what to anticipate, but there are a lot of lessons in evidence of what to do and what not to do in such situations! Are you saying that no concealed carry person can learn these lessons?

Actually shooting another person - please do not carry if you have not made that decision way ahead of time... you will get yourself and perhaps others killed.

Person that took the shooter down... did he hesitate? Only long enough to focus on his sights and make a head shot!!!

 

[bbbass]

The guy that made the kill shot on the perp. He drew fast, but started late from what I can see.

Got it, thx.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Person that took the shooter down... did he hesitate? Only long enough to focus on his sights and make a head shot!!!

I make mention here about your post, not to speak abut the incident per se but about what I see in my classes a lot.

I know in the incident discussed, we're talking about a head shot...which will require more sight refinement and trigger finesse. But I see a lot of the same happening on lesser detailed targets and shots. A great fast and efficient draw, but a hesitation on the first shot. I see a lot of people trying to get that "perfect" sight alignment-sight picture before pressing the shot.

Since we are fighting two things within us, that being a a pulse and breathing...we are unable to hold a "perfect" anything for very long. BUT, as long as are eyes are locked onto the target, the sights will always come back to that which is locked on to.

 

[2506]

The guy that stopped it reacted pretty quick.

He's ex-FBI. They don't mess around.

 

[Jcon268]

I went back and watch it again and sad to say but I believe the lady is screaming . DADDY no .
O daddy .
So I'm guessing that one of the guy that got shot was her dad.

Yes that was Anton Wallace the man who was critically injured and died later that night. He was proximally the closest to the shooter and the one who it the shooter appears to speak to. His daughter was present as well.

 

[Member 5605]

For those who carry in Church or the like...what possible shooting distances are you seeing?

Is what you carry capable of consistently making those shots?

0 - 25y
Yes. I also practice at said distance.

 

[leadcounsel]

It's tragic, and tough to watch the last few seconds of these victims' lives unfold. A day at worship, between Christmas and the New Year. Furthest thing on their mind was living their last few seconds. These victims were heroes for taking bullets meant for others. And the man who intervened and expertly drew and placed a headshot from a distance is deserving of incredible accolades. He (and the other armed parishioners) represent exactly what the armed people, under the 2A, stand for. Kudos for all of them, and I'm glad this event was captured on video for learning and education and sharing purposes. While it could have gone better with faster reaction, this is a very good example of the need for and use of lethal self defense force.

There are evil wolves that prey upon the innocent and we must have the ability to defend ourselves everywhere, including church.

The video or photos and explanation should be circulated far and wide for anyone who doesn't grasp the reason for and need for armed concealed carry. These 6 or so armed congregation members saved countless innocent lives. That man could have killed 50 people with the right semi-automatic tools and mindset. When the shooting starts, most of these people just laid in the floor. Many of them were too old, slow, or confused and just froze on the floor in their pews. That man could have easily killed dozens of people. These armed men were absolute life saving heroes. And this lesson MUST be passed along.

As for learning points, situational awareness is another key takeaway. One witness apparently said the man was oddly dressed and had a disguise. The video shows he is very oddly dressed. He was probably a stranger to the church too. He should have been watched very very carefully, and scrutinized. A stranger, disguises, a big heavy trench coat at a church service. Alarm bells folks. That is a good take away.

One final take away, is hand-to-hand reaction. I'm not armchair quarterbacking. But if someone 5' away starts to draw a long gun, you will not outdraw him. You might be able to tackle him and tie him up to prevent use of the long gun.

 

[GunSmoke]

Hearing that girl screaming for her dad was brutal. F**k that guy, f**k a gun free zone, & f**k gun control.

 

[EHJ]

Something interesting...
From here - it states he used a Sig P229 in .357.

Is there an SAO in 357 or were they all DA/SA?

Because if this was a DA shot... well... more Wow.