Gifting Guns

Discussion in 'Firearm Laws & Legal' started by dustinm, Nov 27, 2016.

Tags:
  1. dustinm

    dustinm
    The BEAVER State
    Active Member

    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    43
    I'm in a little bit of a conundrum. My boss is retiring and some of us employees got together and bought him a gun. He picked it out, I ordered it through a local box store sporting goods store and now I just found out the bad news. I thought he could go with me and get his background check and take possession of the rifle, I was just paying the bill. However, since it was on my CC, apparently I have to get the background, take possession, then go to another place who does transfers and pay money to have it transferred to him.

    My understanding of straw purchases were people buying guns for those who legally can't possess them. We both are clean, I thought since I was just the money behind the purchase he could do the background. Apparently not so according to the box store.

    I guess now to be legal we have to go pay to have another transfer done?
     
  2. Kruejl

    Kruejl
    Hillsboro
    Moderator of the Coriolis effect Staff Member Gold Supporter

    Messages:
    3,922
    Likes Received:
    9,285
    11a (first check box) asks if you are the actual transferee/buyer. You can gift to immediate family. Otherwise, it's a straw purchase under the eyes of the law.
     
    maddog and Patriot1668 like this.
  3. dustinm

    dustinm
    The BEAVER State
    Active Member

    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    43
    I just found this online (so it's gotta be true;))

    straw pur·chase
    noun
    US
    "a criminal act in which a person who is prohibited from buying firearms uses another person to buy a gun on their behalf."

    Neither of us are prohibited from purchasing.
     
  4. Kruejl

    Kruejl
    Hillsboro
    Moderator of the Coriolis effect Staff Member Gold Supporter

    Messages:
    3,922
    Likes Received:
    9,285
    No worries, I'm not a lawyer. Just stating what's on Form 4473.

    Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. ....Yes / No"
     
  5. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt
    NE Oregon
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    3,328
    Having everyone in the office chip in for a gift certificate is the safe way to go.
     
    Jim Colvill and No_Regerts like this.
  6. dustinm

    dustinm
    The BEAVER State
    Active Member

    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    43
    Thanks. I'm not trying to find a work around, but just a little frustrated with the extra steps. I will pick up the gun and take him to a local to do another transfer. Seems a bit ridiculous that he can't do the background and take possession and let me pay the bill.
     
  7. dustinm

    dustinm
    The BEAVER State
    Active Member

    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    43
    We looked at the gift certificate option but since the guns going to get engraved it will be mine until after the retirement party / presentation and then we will transfer it.
     
  8. No_Regerts

    No_Regerts
    Warshington
    Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    2,943
    Likes Received:
    8,448
    I think if you do the transfer, it should be fine. The spirit of straw buying is buying on the behalf of a prohibited person or to avoid documentation of purchase. Transferring to him is neither of those evil things.
     
  9. The Heretic

    The Heretic
    Oregon
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,252
    Likes Received:
    12,541
    The store is correct. You can only gift to your family without a BGC.

    Either that, or give your boss the money and let him purchase it.

    But it sounds like you have already paid for it.
     
  10. The Heretic

    The Heretic
    Oregon
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,252
    Likes Received:
    12,541
    Doesn't matter about the intent, the law is that the boss will have to do the transfer and BGC
     
  11. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt
    NE Oregon
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    3,328
    Just to be safe, you'd better have a Lake Oswego Pastor do the presentation/transfer for you.
     
    svxr8dr, jessieD, B5Ben and 7 others like this.
  12. The Heretic

    The Heretic
    Oregon
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,252
    Likes Received:
    12,541
  13. No_Regerts

    No_Regerts
    Warshington
    Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    2,943
    Likes Received:
    8,448
    Wow, great post. I wonder how long someone has to possess a gun before they sell it then? This makes as much sense as the catch/no catch rule in the NFL. Simply put, a catch is when they say it is regardless of what happened. If I were yhe ATF, I'd troll any gun classified looking for NIB ads.
     
  14. The Heretic

    The Heretic
    Oregon
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,252
    Likes Received:
    12,541
    On one hand intent does count - if you intended to keep the gun for yourself and then later sold it - in which case you would be doing a BGC in CA, WA and OR anyway and then it would be hard to prosecute you for a straw purchase since there would be a 4473 and BGC record for that sale.

    I certainly agree that the law is stupid and unconstitutional, but if you want to stay out of trouble (court at least and then possibly prison) it is just best to go with the letter of the law with regards to transfers.

    In short, per the highest court in the land, it doesn't matter if the other person in the transaction is perfectly legal, it is still a straw purchase if they were the intended recipient.

    Gifting is different as it isn't a sale - but not in WA or Orygun - unless the recipient is a close relative. In that case it becomes state law that matters, and the state law says only close relatives are exempt from either sales or gift BGCs. Personally, I am surprised that they let that "loophole" through, but I am guessing they felt that it was necessary to pass it.
     
  15. scrandall01215

    scrandall01215
    Washougal,WA
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    567
    You must have a really great boss, for you and your fellow colleagues to buy him such a nice gift!! Nice job !

    Stacy
     
  16. SCARed

    SCARed
    Vancouver, WA
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    311
    A little late to the thread, but I think there's a few things wrong with your interpretation of what the OP is wanting to do.
    If he does what you and the BB store are telling him to do, which is to purchase the gun, then go to another FFL and transfer it to his boss, then the OP is doing the exact same thing that Abramski did. The OP would be lying on a federal form because he knows the gun is not actually for him.
    The actual transferee is the OPs boss. It only becomes a straw purchase if the OP is given the gun by the boss afterwards without a BGC.
    It seems like a catch-22 no matter how the gun is purchased.

    Now I do think the SC got the decision wrong as the made a very broad definition of "straw purchase".
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
  17. dustinm

    dustinm
    The BEAVER State
    Active Member

    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    43
    Thanks for the reply. I agree with your interpretation. My only thought is to do the BGC, hold the gun in my possession, (maybe shoot it once or twice) and then offer to resell it at a drastically reduced rate with another BGC a month later when it is presented to him.
     
  18. The Heretic

    The Heretic
    Oregon
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,252
    Likes Received:
    12,541
    I disagree. The problem here is that people are mixing up federal and state law.

    The employee is (IMO) the purchaser - he (and his fellow employees) are gifting the gun to the boss. Federal law does not require that you have someone you are gifting a gun to fill out the 4473.

    Federal law doesn't require that you fill out a 4473 for a private sale either - if you are not purchasing the gun with the intention of turning around and selling it to someone else immediately.

    It is state law that requires that the BGC be performed and the 4473 be filled out for a sale or gift transfer of a firearm to a person who is not exempted from the BGC (family is exempt).

    E.G., if I was a resident of Idaho and I want to buy a gun and give it as a gift to another resident of Idaho, I would be the buyer, and I would fill out the 4473 stating that I was the buyer and that would be correct - the recipient of the gift is not the buyer.

    I have bought (before the BGC laws) firearms as gifts for people, and I made it no secret to the FFL that it was a gift for another person. Before the BGC laws, I have never had to have the recipient of the gift come in and fill out the 4473, and no FFL ever suggested that this was necessary.

    But to make things clearer and avoid any problems - just have the boss go with the employee and have the boss fill out the 4473 stating that he (or she) is the "transferee" (it states that in the form). This fulfills both state and federal law. If the gun shop says different, then they need to talk to the ATF and the OSP because they are wrong (I missed this earlier). There is no reason to do two transfers, two BGCs, two 4473.
     
    partsed and F2CMaDMaXX like this.
  19. The Heretic

    The Heretic
    Oregon
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,252
    Likes Received:
    12,541
    That would be a straw sale/purchase - if you didn't do the 4473 again. That would be buying it with the intention of selling it to someone else.

    You will be covered by the fact that you would be doing the BGC and the boss filling out the 4473. You don't need to shoot the gun. The amount of time is irrelevant. It is a gift, you are following the law by doing a transfer through an FFL and doing the BGC. It is unnecessary IMO, but if the selling FFL insists, then it may be easier for you to just do a second BGC at a different FFL. I would not do further business with the FFL that insists on that though as they are both wrong and wasting your time and money.
     
  20. The Heretic

    The Heretic
    Oregon
    Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,252
    Likes Received:
    12,541
    Right on this form it states this very case.

    I can't copy from it because it is PDF and it won't let me highlight and copy/paste to here, but search for the word "gift" and it will state my assertion.

    https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download
     
    F2CMaDMaXX likes this.

Share This Page