Bellevue, WA - Confrontation over mask policy: Customer pulls gun on Bellevue gas station employee

[BAJ475]

well i guess my response to that is these sorts of distinctions are probably gonna be addressed under tort law, not criminal law. that's why i brought up having never been sued. it's entirely possible to be liable- guilty, essentially- of something civilly but not criminally. what constitutes excessive force in criminal law is a higher threshold than in civil law. this is how stores can get sued by people their LPs beat up where a criminal investigation was done and no charges were filed... but a simple majority of civil court jurors decides was too much.

Again we agree. But I think there is another take-a-way. Our discussion shows that different people can and do view the same thing differently. And this is important to understand because you do not know how a police officer, prosecutor, judge or jury may view the situation. Thus, it is advisable to steer well clear of questionable situations. For the clerk, going hands on was not a good idea. He had better choices available. For the customer, drawing a gun when there was not a clear and immediate threat of death of great bodily injury was also a poor choice. I am not saying the she could not have had an honest subjective belief of further attack. But the question may not be her subjective belief but whether such belief was objectively reasonable.

Hopefully, those who participate in these discussions will continuously keep in mind that we share a common interest as gun people and that our best interest are served by helping each other understand the issues we face.

 

[freelander]

When the "attacker" literally is walking away from you, unarmed, behind a glass door….

 

[American123]

If you want to get the WRONG info on a law, ask a Cop. Anyone who wants to "believe" that because some Cop claimed the clerk was ok, by all means try it. Make sure you have REALLY good insurance first. If you do it where you work you are going to be out of a job.

This 1000% - cops generally in my experience are familiar with a narrow slice of the law, anything outside of that and anyone who can read the RCW's with comprehension will have a better understanding.

 

[American123]

The acid test for this is: if a pregnant women, or a small child, or a elderly senior were in the same scenario would the clerk be "good" within the law to physically rough them up and throw them out of the store just because they refused to leave. If any of those answers are "no" then he was in the wrong because the law applies to everyone.

Personal property rights at your abode are not the same as your place of employment. If the woman was in his house without invitation then he'd have every right to use force to remove her, he wasn't at his home. The only reason the cop making the PR statement said what he said about being within his right to remove her was because this was a mask compliance related issue and the state wants all dissenters to be made an example as much as possible.

 

[Alexx1401]

The acid test for this is: if a pregnant women, or a small child, or a elderly senior were in the same scenario would the clerk be "good" within the law to physically rough them up and throw them out of the store just because they refused to leave. If any of those answers are "no" then he was in the wrong because the law applies to everyone.

Personal property rights at your abode are not the same as your place of employment. If the woman was in his house without invitation then he'd have every right to use force to remove her, he wasn't at his home. The only reason the cop making the PR statement said what he said about being within his right to remove her was because this was a mask compliance related issue and the state wants all dissenters to be made an example as much as possible.

YEP! If this clerk still has a job and he does not learn from this he is playing with fire. If he does this again and the woman is "of color"? He will be out of a job and the news will have a van set up in front of the place doing live shots. The owner will then have to make a nice pay out to get them to go away. That is NOT to defend what this moron "karen" did. She deserves every bit of trouble she is in. It scares me to see people say they think this clerk was fine because he is playing with fire here. We have to regularly use physical force on people where I work. They regularly train and re train for when we can do so and how much we can use. Now and then one of my co workers loses their temper and screws up. Its REAL hard to get terminated but, screw up use of force and they will show you the door.

 

[freelander]

Imagine if that were a black person brandishing.

 

[American123]

Imagine if that were a black person brandishing.

Wouldn't have made the news.

 

[jyuzamas]

This clerk picked on a women he thought was defenseless. I dont agree with her pulling the gun but I completely understand why she did because the clerk had no right to physically remove here the way he did. I think all the men on here that live close to the store should go there without your mask and see how his tactic works with one of us. Bellevue that says it all they still think mask are going to keep them from getting sick just like they think Brandon is going to do something good for the country.

 

[EPS]

So the gas station here down the street from my house has all the signs up about mask .
But I go in there all the time with out a mask .
The employees all where masks.
But are told not to tell people to put one on.
Why because that's not there job .
And it will stop STUPIDITY LIKE THIS.

 

[EPS]

And now we all know where the Bellevue police chief stands

 

[EPS]

She should be contacting lawyer and find out why she couldn't get a receipt from the pump.
Then she wouldn't have to go inside.
If it turns out that they could not give receipt for pump because employee did not make sure that the receipt paper was full .
Lawsuit.
If it was not working the pump should have been put out of service.
Another lawsuit.
She should not have had to go into the store if she was just buying gas.
Another lawsuit.
Kinda goes along the bait and switch primmis.
IF THEY HAVE TO COME IN THE STORE TO GET A RECEIPT.
they might buy something else.

 

[EPS]

Just wait till someone goes In there with a mask on and Rob this clown.
Him and the police chief will be saying.
Duh we can't Id them because they had a mask on.
To tell the truth I AM VERY SURPRISED THAT THERE ARE NOT MORE STORES BEING ROBBED.
because of the mask mandate.
But then again there could be a lot of robbery that we don't hear about.

 

[ATCclears]

I'm not a Judge (and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night), but if the woman has an active CPL then I wonder how much money in legal fees will it cost her to keep it.

 

[Mikej]

I wonder the elite, elected, so-called public servants, sit back enjoying the way they have turned the American public into their own private enforcers of their unconstitutional, and now proven unnecessary, mask mandates? Those asshat elites in Salem have attempted, and succeeded somewhat, in turning my wife into an enforcer of their mandates as middle management at a major chain grocery store.
Guys like "Mini-Market Gas Station Dood" there get off on it.

 

[bbbass]

itd be real interesting to see how many of you endorsing violating mask rules also endorse bubblegum like mandatory minimum sentences for law-breakers.

No to your first premise.... I wear a mask IF the store requires it. (But not generally outside as The Great Goddess in Salem has decreed. If that makes me a "law" breaker, then show me the law, and arrest me along with the million other Oregonians now fed up and doing the same!)

Yes to your second premise... we have not been able to trust lenient/progressive/radical/soft judges for at least 40yrs now. Lately it is almost impossible to get criminals prosecuted, much less have sentencing that works to dissuade criminal behavior and recidivism. But I would point out that minimum sentences are for serious violations of law... comparing that to violating a decree under prolonged and excessive emergency powers the Legislature has failed to reign in is IMO beyond the pale and appears to be ranting and argumentum just for the sake of same.

 

[bbbass]

hen by law patrons must wear masks. by what law, specifically? trespass law.

Lawyerspeak. And lawyers can twist anything.

It only becomes trespass law if the patron has been legally trespassed by the biz. Otherwise, it is often less of a violation than a parking ticket.

In Oregon, the Great Goddess in Salem knows that she is violating the OR constitution, so she made OSHA promulgate a "rule", which has the force of law, and forces businesses to be the enforcers of the rule or the biz can incur fines and penalties. IMO that is an outrageous, and unecessary burden on a business. But nobody is going to be arrested until they have been tresspassed, unlike in Calif.

 

[bbbass]

ORS 161.225 – Use of physical force in defense of premises

A person in lawful possession or control of premises is justified in using physical force upon another person when and to the…

oregon.public.law

That's a stretch:

Define "criminal trespass", esp vs ordinary trespass.

 

[bbbass]

Actually, some of them have a decent understanding. But as VanceInWA stated, you will only know when the court rules.

Yep, the law is NOT what the law says, nor what legislature intended, but what a JUDGE says the law is...

 

[Nosferatu]

You mean the part where he called the majority of people on this board "prick"?

Especilly that part!

 

[Catfishmoon]

I do not like fools... I like fools with guns even less.