National ATF coming for pistol braces

[osprey]

The prerequisites state that the firearm needs to measure between 12 and 26 inches in length to proceed with point tally worksheet. Presumably a retailer could still sell a 26.1+ inch long braced pistol and not be subject to point tally worksheet. I guess they could go ahead and add a vertical foregrip to make it a "firearm". It won't be super compact but it will still leave room for retailers to sell something shorter than a rifle and utilize their pistol brace inventories. Adding 26.5 inch firearm build to my list of projects. I have an SBA4 brace looking for something to do.

Honest question here. What is the point of making it over 26". My understanding is, to be even considered for evaluation with the point system it has to be between 12 and 26". If over it automatically will fall into nfa territory will it not?

 

[BBQ Guy]

I'm not 100 percent sure. So I don't want to offer the wrong advice. I dont conceal mine.

Fair enough.
Hopefully someone chimes in and has a resource to confirm.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Honest question here. What is the point of making it over 26". My understanding is, to be even considered for evaluation with the point system it has to be between 12 and 26". If over it automatically will fall into nfa territory will it not?

In the past, the ATF has held that "under 26" is concealable " with regards to Any Other Weapons/AOWs.

Other than that, a firearm may become a SBR or SBS (depends on if its rifled barrel, smoothbore, made from a rifle or shotgun) if its barrel is less than 16(rifle) or 18 inches(shotgun), and is designed to be fired from the shoulder.

GCA1968 added some descriptions to "rifles/shotguns/pistols" I think, and stated that a pistol is concealable.

 

[osprey]

In the past, the ATF has held that "under 26" is concealable " with regards to Any Other Weapons/AOWs.

Other than that, a firearm may become a SBR or SBS (depends on if its rifled barrel, smoothbore, made from a rifle or shotgun) if its barrel is less than 16(rifle) or 18 inches(shotgun), and is designed to be fired from the shoulder.

GCA1968 added some descriptions to "rifles/shotguns/pistols" I think, and stated that a pistol is concealable.

So with a rifled barrel under 16" and oal over 26" it would be automatically be considered an sbr with a brace or a stock and require a tax stamp. Am I missing something?

 

[CamoDeafie]

So with a rifled barrel under 16" and oal over 26" it would be automatically be considered an sbr with a brace or a stock and require a tax stamp. Am I missing something?

With a shoulder stock, its a SBR regardless of the OAL. The OAL only gets counted if its not got a shoulder stock (a "pistol" with brace) and could land one into AOW category if its under 26" OAL. Thats the current interpretation as far as I can understand it. The new guidelines are really about making ARs with braces into AOWs or SBRs , without Congress (read, illegally legislating)

 

[ilikegunspdx]

The article shown is a summary and has link to the original scorecard. Do we know if any changes were made to the scorecard (or anything else?) or is everything 100% exactly as it was on the first version?

 

[Flopsweat]

Quick question.

What are the laws governing concealment of an SBR?

I will be honest and admit i find it difficult to read through all the legalese.

I'm not 100 percent sure. So I don't want to offer the wrong advice. I dont conceal mine.

I don't know of any federal laws about concealment, just disguise. That doesn't mean there aren't any, but I personally doubt it. If that's true, it would be up to OR law when in OR. If you take it to WA (and have a CPL or reciprocity), the state has a weird definition of pistol, so it very well may be legally a pistol (There is a thread about that around here somewhere), although it seems it's yet to be tested in court. As usual, this is just me guessing and it's not advice.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Edit: I found it. Starting on page 5111. All it is is a timeline at this point along with the abstract language. No details at all.

I downloaded the federal register Jan 21, 2022 via the link in the article and I can't find any mention of BATF. The only thing under department of justice is drug enforcement. What am I missing?

Here is the link for the pdf of the federal register.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2022-01-31/pdf/FR-2022-01-31.pdf

 

[wired]

I understand there could be some length of pull issue but I am not sure how they would calculate the length of pull when you are only holding it to your cheek.

They dont care how you hold it. LOP is currently 13.5" or under for a pistol measured from the end of the brace to the center of the trigger. I havent seen that change.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

The author of the article talks about

APS Adjustable Pistol Support

Not a shoulder stock, not a pistol brace, the brand new Black Collar Arms APS — Adjustable Pistol Support — is a height adjustable rest designed to support a precision pistol on a bench…

blackcollararms.com

As a new alternative to braces. Has anyone run that through the original proposed scorecard?

I'm hesitant to run anything through that scorecard until we know what the final scorecard is. With the original scorecard you could tape a toothpick to the pistol and that is all for the "brace" (ie no brace at all) and if you have an angled foregrip (or combo of other things) it would fail the scorecard.

 

[arakboss]

Honest question here. What is the point of making it over 26". My understanding is, to be even considered for evaluation with the point system it has to be between 12 and 26". If over it automatically will fall into nfa territory will it not?

No, a pistol can be 10ft long. The ATF is claiming that they are concerned about concealment issues and evidently 26" is the length where they are less concerned about concealment.

 

[arakboss]

The author of the article talks about

APS Adjustable Pistol Support

Not a shoulder stock, not a pistol brace, the brand new Black Collar Arms APS — Adjustable Pistol Support — is a height adjustable rest designed to support a precision pistol on a bench…

blackcollararms.com

As a new alternative to braces. Has anyone run that through the original proposed scorecard?

I'm hesitant to run anything through that scorecard until we know what the final scorecard is. With the original scorecard you could tape a toothpick to the pistol and that is all for the "brace" (ie no brace at all) and if you have an angled foregrip (or combo of other things) it would fail the scorecard.
View attachment 1126667

They can call that thing whatever they want but if the ATF says it can aid in shouldering the firearm you can bet it will make the scorecard apply to the firearm it is attached too. There will be a zillion "solutions" provided by entrepreneurs and the ATF will have trouble responding to them.

I had the idea of a magazine holder that attaches to extension tube and allows the magazines to sit parallel with the extension tube. The mag holder would allow the floor plate end of the mag(s) to stick out past the end of the extension tube in the area the butt end of the brace or stock would normally reside. It could be an adjustable mag carrier so the mag carrier could be positioned in the same holes on the extension tube that an adjustable brace or stock uses.

 

[arakboss]

So with a rifled barrel under 16" and oal over 26" it would be automatically be considered an sbr with a brace or a stock and require a tax stamp. Am I missing something?

It would be a pistol with a brace. SBR with a stock.

 

[arakboss]

The author of the article talks about

APS Adjustable Pistol Support

Not a shoulder stock, not a pistol brace, the brand new Black Collar Arms APS — Adjustable Pistol Support — is a height adjustable rest designed to support a precision pistol on a bench…

blackcollararms.com

As a new alternative to braces. Has anyone run that through the original proposed scorecard?

I'm hesitant to run anything through that scorecard until we know what the final scorecard is. With the original scorecard you could tape a toothpick to the pistol and that is all for the "brace" (ie no brace at all) and if you have an angled foregrip (or combo of other things) it would fail the scorecard.
View attachment 1126667

What's funny about the line item you highlighted regarding 2nd grip is that would be illegal even before the new scorecard sheet?

 

[Nutty4Guns]

,

 

[Diamondback]

They can call that thing whatever they want but if the ATF says it can aid in shouldering the firearm you can bet it will make the scorecard apply to the firearm it is attached too. There will be a zillion "solutions" provided by entrepreneurs and the ATF will have trouble responding to them.

I had the idea of a magazine holder that attaches to extension tube and allows the magazines to sit parallel with the extension tube. The mag holder would allow the floor plate end of the mag(s) to stick out past the end of the extension tube in the area the butt end of the brace or stock would normally reside. It could be an adjustable mag carrier so the mag carrier could be positioned in the same holes on the extension tube that an adjustable brace or stock uses.

Suggestion: Just design a tube with a short 1913 rail section on each side and rack two of these.

MPS | AR15 Magazine Pouch

Buy MPS | AR15 Magazine Pouch and other tactical products such as, Micro Roni Stabilizers, Roni, Glock Conversion Kits, Stabilizers, accessories, optics and other tools

caagearup.com

Or sew a sleeve with two mag-pouches... this is why part of me wants to cook up a patent for an MG conversion using an ATF JBT trouserwurst, and saying by the Shoelace Precedent they have to meatcleaver their Johnsons.

 

[arakboss]

Suggestion: Just design a tube with a short 1913 rail section on each side and rack two of these.

MPS | AR15 Magazine Pouch

Buy MPS | AR15 Magazine Pouch and other tactical products such as, Micro Roni Stabilizers, Roni, Glock Conversion Kits, Stabilizers, accessories, optics and other tools

caagearup.com

Or sew a sleeve with two mag-pouches... this is why part of me wants to cook up a patent for an MG conversion using an ATF JBT trouserwurst, and saying by the Shoelace Precedent they have to meatcleaver their Johnsons.

Yep, that could work.

 

[The Heretic]

Yep, that could work.

View attachment 1126918

 

[Nutty4Guns]

,

 

[Diamondback]

View attachment 1126920

Except that what we were discussing was no "shoulder interface" on the backplane and the mags pointing the other way. Maybe start with a cheekrest as the "saddle" the mag pouches mount on...

I have one of those carriers mounted on the left-sie handguard on my Mk 18, a 40rd PMAG nestles in very nicely with an A5 buffer tube and SBM4.