Active shooter at a Texas HS

[Boboclown]

No registration, no restrictions on type, size, capacity, caliber, color, features, or number owned short of theromuclear weapons. I don't think nukes should be on the table for civvie ownership, frankly I'm not warm & fuzzy with the government having them but thats a genie never going back into the bottle.

I don't think many civilians would be able to afford nukes and facilities required to store them, let alone maintain them. Even the ones who could likely would end up losing enough money they wouldn't want to.

On the other hand, black market+200 grand=You get one for a one time use. Scary how much stuff is in the black market overseas.

 

[mkwerx]

I don't think many civilians would be able to afford nukes and facilities required to store them, let alone maintain them. Even the ones who could likely would end up losing enough money they wouldn't want to.

On the other hand, black market+200 grand=You get one for a one time use. Scary how much stuff is in the black market overseas.

Just worried that Paul Allen may loose his nut some day, and he'd nuke Portland re-enacting the bombing of Hiroshima. For an anti gun dude, he's got a lot of cool hardware. He could afford a nuke...

 

[bbbass]

No exercise of authority, one person reminding another of simething. Where did I say he takes enforcement action again? Your neighbor could do the same thing, is that oppressing you too?

Difference is, my neighbor would be minding his own business.

Difference is, the cop would be exercising his authority. And I didn't mention anything about enforcement.

Yes, I am worked up. I'm upset. I won't apologize for that. For one thing, you went out of your way to insult me. But the greater point, is that in my view, you are folding in with those that say "we must do something". I'm not in favor of more laws on the books. Period. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[bbbass]

The Antis are a lost cause but they aren't the ones we need to care about. There is a large percentage of the populace which is non-gun owning but views gun ownership positively nonetheless. Those are the people we need to speak to and the storage proposal mkwerx suggested would likely strike them as a positive note while at the same time actually doing something and protecting gun owners as well. This is why I think it is different from other proposals which have all been about limiting our rights with no actual positive effect. It's understandable to be a bit shell-shocked by the proposals the Antis are making/have passed in the past -- but I think this really is different. It's sort of like that Federal law that protects gun manufacturers as long as they aren't doing anything illegal or promoting any illegal uses -- that's a positive.

I appreciate your opinion. Still not sure I can control a knee jerk reaction to proposals for more laws at this time.

 

[mkwerx]

Difference is, my neighbor would be minding his own business.

Difference is, the cop would be exercising his authority. And I didn't mention anything about enforcement.

Yes, I am worked up. I'm upset. I won't apologize for that. For one thing, you went out of your way to insult me. But the greater point, is that in my view, you are folding in with those that say "we must do something". I'm not in favor of more laws on the books. Period. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

I am sorry for insulting you. Frustration is high with both of us. Ideally I agree, we need fewer laws not more, but IF we must have new ones, they should make sense, and not abuse those of us doing nothing wrong.

I wish we could roll our society back 30, 40 or 50 years.

I grew up in a house with guns, no safe. A wooden gunrack the old man made that held a Winchester 94, a Sears 20 guage bolt action shotgun, the occasional .22 and a few boxes of ammo. He kept a J frame .38 in his dresser drawer when it was not in his pocket.

I grew up respecting guns, respecting elders and respecting authority. As imperfect as my grandparents were, I turned out ok. Its damn scary what our country and what our world has become, and I am, like you, afraid the antis will in the end get a victory, or we will see our country fall and balkanize.

 

[Geardo]

that might mean that we -- as people who own and understand firearms -- should be the ones proposing rules about reasonable measures regarding storage.

Only if we get something in return, suppresors or SBRs off the NFA.

 

[Boboclown]

Only if we get something in return, suppresors or SBRs off the NFA.

I always found it funny that in the UK suppressors are seen as safety devices and don't require the steps we have to go through, and are much cheaper. And funny that they can have barrels as short as 12 inches.

 

[Geardo]

The crazy license scheme proposed means scrapping the B o R and saying you have no rights, just privliges subject to the whim of beaurocrats. Pass.

No registration, no restrictions on type, size, capacity, caliber, color, features, or number owned short of theromuclear weapons. I don't think nukes should be on the table for civvie ownership, frankly I'm not warm & fuzzy with the government having them but thats a genie never going back into the bottle.

I'm not even on board mandating secure storage, and Heller already laid out that you cannot mandate it.

We should at the very least be able to own anti material, anti tank weapons.

 

[bbbass]

So we - society - have a problem. Its multifaceted, and will require many different measures to solve. I made a suggestion for one step, I'd love to hear yours.

I both agree and disagree. If you've bothered to read any of my posts either in this thread or in the past on this subject, you will know that I've said we have a societal problem, one of many. I disagree that we can "solve" mass shootings. IMO we can make some progress.

In that regard, if you've read my posts, you will know that I am against more laws, but for starting to heal society, social culture, schools, universities, etc. This will take some time. IMO there are no quick fixes. Do you want my ideas for healing society?

 

[Boboclown]

Fixing the media is a big step in fixing the problems we face. Many times have I said it, and tried to open up that dialogue. But all the people who want more laws just ignore it and turn into a broken record.

 

[arakboss]

I'm not missing the point. I'm saying that they are nowhere near as common as other murders, and that new laws won't make a difference.

I agree the press makes this seem much more common than it is. Chicago has had 27 murders committed with firearms since May 1st and 153 since Jan 1st and you rarely hear about them on the news.

 

[Geardo]

I am enjoying reading this thread, as it has a whole bunch of good posters and some good thoughts and suggestions with minimal rancor. On another site there is a similar discussion and one guy posted this long possible way to come to terms with the "guns versus no guns" talk and I thought as long as you guys were looking for ideas I'd go ahead and copy and past it here. I did ask the guy who came up with this for permission.

Note 1: If you don't like it, don't hate me - I am simply trying to expand the dialog here as all of you have come up with good stuff.
Note 2: You'll notice mental illness is not mentioned. That is because it was covered elsewhere in that thread.

Now, settle in for a bit of a long read. Again, just running this up the flagpole for discussion.

1) Repeal ALL existing gun laws; Start fresh

a. I think part of the problem we have now is that each state has it's own, often convoluted, rules. What this means is that even if one state has a good, executable plan, it can easily be undone by a neighboring state that thinks it's a good idea to give away free guns with a new Savings account. The Second Amendment is at the Federal level anyway, so I see no reason that each state should get to have it's own rules. It's not 1776 anymore. All laws I propose will be applied uniformly regardless of state or jurisdiction.

2) Everything will be legal; with restrictions.

a. The core of my idea is that essentially everything is legal. You want to own a functioning M1 Abrams and its ammunition? Fine, but don't expect to just be able to buy one at your local Walmart. I think there should be requirements, both for training and registration at every level of gun ownership, getting more restrictive as things get more dangerous. There is definitely a trade off here. Under my plan, gun advocates will have access to any sort of gun they want, in any number they want, but they have to be willing to accept some things they might find disagreeable in order to get them. It's a compromise.

b. ALL sales require a background check that must be completed by an FFL.

c. Conviction for a violent crime is a no go for ever owning a gun again.

d. Concealed Carry becomes a "shall issue" license, assuming you meet the appropriate level as described below and pass a background check.

e. Straw purchase laws will be strengthened and aggressively enforced. If you're found to have purchased a weapon for some one that can not legally possess one (or does not hold the appropriate license level) then you will be held responsible.

f. Mental illness diagnosis requires a sort of "release" from a medical professional. How this would exactly work, I'm not sure. The idea here is that we don't want mentally ill people just being able to buy a gun, but we also understand that there are a lot of people with various mental illnesses that are more than capable of safely owning and operating a gun.

g. I see it essentially like this, in the form of levels similar to how Pilot's licenses or driver's licenses work. They build on each other. Get the Basic DL then add on the Motorcycle endorsement, CDL A, Chauffeur etc etc

h. There are exceptions to the levels when it comes to kids. Your son or daughter can shoot Dad's Glock, as long as Dad is supervising. We'll say that a kid can use a family member's weapon without the appropriate license/endorsement when they are below the age that the license requires.

i. All Levels require some sort of training (with more and more training as you move "up") and they all require a basic "License" that tracks your endorsements for each level. Some levels (the higher ones) require registration of guns.


Level 1: "Hunting" Long Guns

1. These are the sort of weapons that could be reasonably used for hunting. Small capacity (CAPACITY, not caliber) bolt action rifles, lever action rifles, breach loading shot guns etc. The idea here is that people that actually need a weapon to hunt, or protect farm animals, can have that without much fuss.

2. This level would require some sort of basic fire arms training course, and the lowest level License. Training would involve safe handling, safe storage etc. This is sort of the basic driver's license if you will.

3. You must provide proof of an appropriate storage location; a certificate from a Safe installation company, or something along those lines.



Level 2: Low Capacity Semi-Automatic Rifles, Pump Shotguns and Revolvers

1. These are non-detachable magazine fed semi-automatic rifles, and pump action shotguns. Again there is a capacity limit here, to be worked out later; 8? Something in there.

2. This would be an add on endorsement to the "Basic License" requiring additional training, perhaps some range time. Still no registration.



Level 3: Semi-automatic handguns, and detachable magazine rifles, semi-automatic shotguns.

1. Just as described, this is where your AR-15s, Benelli M4s, and every flavor of Glock would reside. NO modifications that increase the rate of fire of the weapon (bump stocks and the like)

2. Another endorsement on your license. A LOT more training. Getting this endorsement will also serve as your CCW, so there will be extensive training on concealed carry operations – safety, traveling with the gun, storing it safely, drawing from a holster, defensive shooting, stress shooting etc etc.

3. This is also the first level with Registration. Like a car, all guns in this category and above must be registered, and their sales tracked – just like a car. Guns have a GIN (i.e. a car's VIN), and you must be the legal owner of that gun to carry it. It is YOUR gun, not your wife's or brothers.

4. Police have the right to see a person's License with Level 3 endorsement if that person is carrying concealed, as well as the gun's registration.


Level 4: Automatic Weapons

1. This includes belt fed machine guns or automatic rifles and submachine guns, including burst fire.

2. Extensive training required, weapons registration, and additional proof of a safe storage location. At this level, law enforcement has the right to inspect the storage site, but it is not a requirement for issuance of the license. Again, it would be something like a certifying document from ABC Safe Installation Company.

3. If one of these weapons is found unsecured, or if one is used in a crime, the lawful owner will be held accountable at the same criminal level. Your drunk bubblegum cousin steals your M16 and holds up a liquor store? You're on the hook for armed robbery.

NOPE! Nope nope nopenopenopety nope!

 

[bbbass]

Fixing the media is a big step in fixing the problems we face. Many times have I said it, and tried to open up that dialogue. But all the people who want more laws just ignore it and turn into a broken record.

Free press under 1A. IMO what we need to do is start fixing Journalism school, people/journalists, and put pressure on media sources to straighten up their act. Because in today's world the media has become nothing more that a political machine that is taking advantage of the "if it bleeds, it leads" factor.

 

[Geardo]

Do you want my ideas for healing society?

EMP. Go back 200 years and try again.

 

[Boboclown]

Sounds like renting a stall in a concentration camp

I mean, probably not as clean. I found roaches in some of those apartments, and the roaches were trying to GET OUT of them!

Free press under 1A. IMO what we need to do is start fixing Journalism school, people/journalists, and put pressure on media sources to straighten up their act. Because in today's world the media has become nothing more that a political machine that is taking advantage of the "if it bleeds, it leads" factor.

I know we have that right, the problem is the people using it don't care that they're perpetuating the endless cycle just to make money by making folk heroes out of the shooters.

Its the elephant in the room. People blame the guns and 2A without realizing that its the 1A is being used to create this cycle.

 

[Colts4me]

The country is like a car folks didn't keep the maintenance up on, they drive it till it breaks and can't afford a new one. Folks just turn up the radio so they don't hear the noise while driving.

 

[mkwerx]

I both agree and disagree. If you've bothered to read any of my posts either in this thread or in the past on this subject, you will know that I've said we have a societal problem, one of many. I disagree that we can "solve" mass shootings. IMO we can make some progress.

In that regard, if you've read my posts, you will know that I am against more laws, but for starting to heal society, social culture, schools, universities, etc. This will take some time. IMO there are no quick fixes. Do you want my ideas for healing society?

I sincerely would. If we can stop things like school shootings, get a handle on the mental health crisis our nation is facing, and not furthet trample upon our liberty, I welcome it with open arms and ears.

Our society has some major wounds, some seld inflicted, some by nefarious actors behind the scenes.

Rapid technological advancement without self control over its use and application, 24 hour blood thirsty media cycles, and the progressive agenda being pushed on our kids from their first day of school are some key components to our decline, in my opinion.

Go beyond that to broken homes, half the population being ok with killing the unborn (while screaming to protect the children ) and - showing itself symptimatically like demonizing our VP for espousing family values and not putting himself in situations of temptation or risk of being accused of impropet behavior, calling for the death of half the population because they don't like election outcomes, sky high murder rates in places like Chicago and Detroit...

 

[Boboclown]

The country is like a car folks didn't keep the maintenance up on, they drive it till it breaks and can't afford a new one. Folks just turn up the radio so they don't hear the noise while driving.

You have a FUNCTIONING radio? You must be rich!

 

[Colts4me]

You have a FUNCTIONING radio? You must be rich!

Somebody else owned it before I got it.

 

[Hop Sing]

NOPE! Nope nope nopenopenopety nope!

That brought a laugh (in a good way) - thanks!