Why switch to a different weight bullet? What does a bullets energy give us?

[Spitpatch]

I dont think I will ever take a shot on game past 400yds on a windless day.

STUDENTS! ATTEND!

 

[357 MAX]

Which one?

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Thanks for asking. The cartridge kills everything it is directed at.

With respect to @Koda (towards being on topic), the .256 is a recent example of mine where I was happy with a load but changed it to a lighter bullet. The Pronghorn was killed with a 75gr Hornady VMax (driven at .256 velocities it performs like a very good big game bullet, penetrating and expanding).

When "The Wolfer" was built, the Seirra 70gr BlitzKing had been introduced. Magazine length concerns have been at the forefront when loading sharp-nosed bullets in both of these rifles. (I buff the plastic tips to a sort of semi-spitzer).

Having pretty much decided big game ventures with the .256 are over with, I had no problem switching the Wolfer's load to the Sierra. A bit more velocity, and a somewhat shorter bullet overall allowed seating depth to be decreased (still with a buffed tip), and the ogive closer to the lands.

You'll find no arguments from the reclining gentlemen in these photos.

i recently bought a 23" carbine barrel in 256 for my contender. i have been playing with the 256 for about 30 years. my first barrel was a 10" octagon bought at a yard sale. i have not killed any thing with it but now i have the carbine maybe i will. the 75 gr. v max is my favorite bullet for this cartridge, but i have some 87 gr. bullets on the way.

 

[orygun]

T

For example:
My current load: 140gn Hammer at 3200fps at 600yds gives me 2120fps and 1397ft/lbs of energy.

Their 162gn tipped version at a modest MV estimate of 2900fps results in 2027fps and 1478ft/lbs of energy at 600yds. A difference of 81ftlbs.


note: 600yds for down range comparison only not what I will hunt at. Within reasonable hunting distances the differences is even less. The trade off is probably more recoil.

I wouldn't be surprised if the calculated energy of those 140gr bullets is higher than the 162 at 100 to maybe 200 yards.
That's where the higher velocity pays off. It doesn't last long, but there it is.

 

[Koda]

I wouldn't be surprised if the calculated energy of those 140gr bullets is higher than the 162 at 100 to maybe 200 yards.
That's where the higher velocity pays off. It doesn't last long, but there it is.

You are correct except if my MV estimates for the 162 are close enough the higher energy doesn't flip until around 350yds.

Its been a fun academic exercise, but it looks like switching isn't worth the time and money. It just strikes me as interesting how little difference it makes within the same cartridge between light and heavy bullets.

 

[IndyPrepper]

Great info here. This subject intrigues me. I'm not a hunter (right now). That's not saying I won't have to become one in the eventual shtf situation where I can't buy my hamburger and chicken at Freddie's anymore..

My interest lies in defensive AR..marksmanship, bullseye targets out to 300yards..so my only experience with a rifle is 5.56 (either 55gr M193 or 62gr M855..that's all I shoot..and only 5.56 nato..not .223.

I've heard alot of hunters cast shade on the .223/5.56 as 'just a .22'..as if it wont kill..which I find amusing.

So I guess I have this question..how deadly would the 5.56 be when it comes to deer/small game hunting, and what is the average, realistic hunting range you guys engage at. 600 yards seems to be a bit of high fish story. I'm really curious.

 

[Koda]

Great info here. This subject intrigues me. I'm not a hunter (right now). That's not saying I won't have to become one in the eventual shtf situation where I can't buy my hamburger and chicken at Freddie's anymore..

My interest lies in defensive AR..marksmanship, bullseye targets out to 300yards..so my only experience with a rifle is 5.56 (either 55gr M193 or 62gr M855..that's all I shoot..and only 5.56 nato..not .223.

I've heard alot of hunters cast shade on the .223/5.56 as 'just a .22'..as if it wont kill..which I find amusing.

So I guess I have this question..how deadly would the 5.56 be when it comes to deer/small game hunting, and what is the average, realistic hunting range you guys engage at. 600 yards seems to be a bit of high fish story. I'm really curious.

The 223 is just fine for deer size game out to/around 3-400yds depending on the bullet velocity. Whats more important than energy is you need to stay above the bullets terminal velocity it needs to expand properly, only after that you want the most energy. You can usually find your bullets terminal velocity from the mfg and you can estimate its terminal velocity in any ballistic calculator. If you cant find the terminal velocity most hunting bullets need at least 2000fps on impact to expand properly. You do need to use a hunting bullet not FMJ so you will probably want to run 223 thru your 556 chamber.

Whats interesting to this thread is you would have the same dilemma in bullet weight selection... I have this theory (and would be worth discussing on its own) that every cartridge has 1 optimal bullet weight. I don't know the full range of 223 bullet weights but with such a small case Im guessing the difference in energy on target doesn't change much either.... assuming ones using a respectable weight for deer in the first place.

I have hunted once with a 223, and in an AR15 backup rifle as well ...so I think a bullet in the 60gn weight is ideal in the AR15 regarding magazine fit and seating depth. I killed a deer with it using a 55gn copper bullet and it was a devastating wound channel no less damaging than my larger deer calibers. For your dual purpose perspective, an AR15 in 556/223 does make an effective backup rifle for medium game.

 

[IndyPrepper]

"I killed a deer with it using a 55gn copper bullet and it was a devastating wound channel no less damaging than my larger deer calibers"

Yeah that's sorta what I figured. Again, I'm no hunter, but from what I've researched, the AR would be an effective small to mid size hunting platform. I'm also really focussed on a shtf use case. I can dump all my money into a hunting rifle and the ammo to go with it. Or stick with the AR and the ammo I already have (which is 3-4x less than large hunting calibers). In a hunting situation, I'm probably going to find a deer/rabbit/squirrel, pig..what have you..and engage it at less than 200 yards anyhow.

And yes I know the ammo I have is not the best for meat quality..with fragmentation and lead etc...but when it comes to starving or not..I'll deal with the lead and pick the metal out..

 

[Koda]

And yes I know the ammo I have is not the best for meat quality..with fragmentation and lead etc...but when it comes to starving or not..I'll deal with the lead and pick the metal out..

Im not concerned if you use lead or copper just use a bullet designed for hunting, as FMJ can pencil thru and they can run far before dying. Im guessing if SHTF if your actually resorting to hunting for survival you probably want to minimize the effort.

 

[IndyPrepper]

Im not concerned if you use lead or copper just use a bullet designed for hunting, as FMJ can pencil thru and they can run far before dying. Im guessing if SHTF if your actually resorting to hunting for survival you probably want to minimize the effort.

I see what you're saying..gotcha

 

[lucusloc]

I have this theory (and would be worth discussing on its own) that every cartridge has 1 optimal bullet weight.

I disagree, as it would depend on the application you are using it for. I might agree if you expand your theory to stipulate "cartridge and application," but I think you would have to get so specific with the definition of "application" that it might become a meaningless distinction.

Lets just talk a look at the variables you could optimize for for various applications;

• Maximum point blank range - you basically want the highest velocity
• Maximum energy at X range - you want either maximum velocity or maximum bullet weight, depending on the range. At medium ranges you might be able to maximize with a mid-weight bullet, but that will depend on chamber pressure specifications and what powders are available to you.
• Maximum quiet for suppressed applications - will be highly dependent on barrel length and suppressor setup. This variable is not intrinsically tied to bullet weight or velocity (as long as you are subsonic at least) so there is no way to tell if a heavier or lighter bullet will be quieter.
• Maximum accuracy - Will depend on chamber specs, twist rate, barrel harmonics and who knows what else. Impossible to predict if you will need a light, mid or heavyweight bullet, or what velocity will be optimal in your setup.
• Maximum reliability - pertinent mostly to semi- or fully-automatic arms, but there are some combinations of factors that can increase failure rates, so by logical extension keeping well away from those combinations we should maximize reliability. Note that this encompass more than just energy and factors in bullet geometry (putting soft limits on bullet weight) and over-all cartridge dimensions (putting soft limits on velocity via restriction in powder volume).

And these are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Now imagine that you are willing to compromise on these, e.g. you want maximum quiet, but are willing to accept a slightly louder round if if gains you a bit more energy downrange. Suddenly your "optimal quiet round" is a bit different than the absolute quietest round possible.

There are just to many ways you can "optimize" for there to be only one optimal round. This is also why we have a bazillion different cartridges on the market instead of just one in every major category; each one is its own set of compromises looking to optimize some specific set of criteria. You have ti decide what "optimal" means to you and find a loading that gets as close to that optimal as you can.

 

[Koda]

I disagree, as it would depend on the application you are using it for. I might agree if you expand your theory to stipulate "cartridge and application," but I think you would have to get so specific with the definition of "application" that it might become a meaningless distinction.

You could break it down by application, thats fine.
Its possible there is a general best weight for a cartridge, its just a theory but it might be more of a best weight for an individual rifles barrel harmonics.

Seems like most people shoot 55gn in 223 for example, 123gn in 6.5, 150gn in 308...?

 

[Spitpatch]

Great info here. This subject intrigues me. I'm not a hunter (right now). That's not saying I won't have to become one in the eventual shtf situation where I can't buy my hamburger and chicken at Freddie's anymore..

My interest lies in defensive AR..marksmanship, bullseye targets out to 300yards..so my only experience with a rifle is 5.56 (either 55gr M193 or 62gr M855..that's all I shoot..and only 5.56 nato..not .223.

I've heard alot of hunters cast shade on the .223/5.56 as 'just a .22'..as if it wont kill..which I find amusing.

So I guess I have this question..how deadly would the 5.56 be when it comes to deer/small game hunting, and what is the average, realistic hunting range you guys engage at. 600 yards seems to be a bit of high fish story. I'm really curious.

In a hunting camp at which I have literally seen hundreds of head of big game taken, the .223 made its debut there when my Dad decided packing around a Ruger #1 in .25-06 seemed of a bit more burden than his newly acquired Interarms Mini-Mauser. It became his primary big game rifle (he was out of the Elk business by then) for the rest of his life.

When my closest Montana friend's daughter wanted to hunt at age 12, we found her a Mini-Mauser. She went on to kill a number of Antelope and at least two Muley bucks I witnessed. (Her first Pronghorn was at 275yds: one shot, down and kicking.)

In the hands of a practiced marksman (both the above were damned good), the .223 works on deer.

 

[Spitpatch]

You could break it down by application, thats fine.
Its possible there is a general best weight for a cartridge, its just a theory but it might be more of a best weight for an individual rifles barrel harmonics.

Seems like most people shoot 55gn in 223 for example, 123gn in 6.5, 150gn in 308...?

"Best" for what? (That's a short version of what @lucusloc was getting at, I think).

Even with the same gun (same twist, etc.etc.etc,) "best" bullet for accuracy might not be "best" for energy retention. "Best" for penetration might not be "best" for accuracy.

As to popularity ("most people shoot..."), the 130gr bullet is by far the most popular bullet in the .270 Win. But it is "light" for the caliber when one looks at the general weights of the popular bullets in other calibers. Same with the 150g weight in the .30-06. They are popular because they kill very well ("best"), despite not being "best" for sectional density and ballistic coefficient.

(By the way, the 123gr bullet is only "popular" in the recent fad 6.5mm cartridges. The generally popular 6.5 bullet weight for a Swede, 260 Rem, 264 Win is 140gr, and this illustrates again that the 130gr is "light" for a .270.)

 

[Andy54Hawken]

So I guess I have this question..how deadly would the 5.56 be when it comes to deer/small game hunting

Game I have taken with a 5.56 and a M16 series / CAR-15 / M4....
Deer , feral sheep , javelina and rabbit.
5.56 / .223 with a proper hunting bullet makes for a excellent hunting cartridge.
And yes...I was using proper hunting cartridges...not the FMJ ammo I was issued.
Andy

 

[Koda]

"Best" for what? (That's a short version of what @lucusloc was getting at, I think).

Even with the same gun (same twist, etc.etc.etc,) "best" bullet for accuracy might not be "best" for energy retention. "Best" for penetration might not be "best" for accuracy.

As to popularity ("most people shoot..."), the 130gr bullet is by far the most popular bullet in the .270 Win. But it is "light" for the caliber when one looks at the general weights of the popular bullets in other calibers. Same with the 150g weight in the .30-06. They are popular because they kill very well ("best"), despite not being "best" for sectional density and ballistic coefficient.

(By the way, the 123gr bullet is only "popular" in the recent fad 6.5mm cartridges. The generally popular 6.5 bullet weight for a Swede, 260 Rem, 264 Win is 140gr, and this illustrates again that the 130gr is "light" for a .270.)

I guess if in general it would be accuracy precision.
"best" for hunting might be different.
If whats most popular isnt the best then why do people choose it?


its just a theory.

 

[awags_86]

I'm much more concerned with impact velocity and a quality bullet than energy

Edit to add - I typically shoot the highest bc bullet I can out of a given caliber… to an extent. Finding the sweet spot between heavy and slow and light and fast. I like that high bc bullets slip the wind. I dial for distance always. Energy is moot with a decently constructed bullet and keeping the impact velocity no lower than 1800 fps- used a 22-250 with 80 grain eldx for deer this year - worked wonderfully

 

[lucusloc]

I guess if in general it would be accuracy precision.
"best" for hunting might be different.
If whats most popular isnt the best then why do people choose it?


its just a theory.

One reason is cost and availability. 55gr was/is military standard and there is a lot of it on the market. Who cares if it not optimal for a specific task if it is optimal for your wallet (another variable I did not even consider in my first post, but may be highly relevant to many people). This is also how other sub-optimal factory loads become standard; manufacturers have many bullets of one weight (possible for another cartridge entirely) and load up a new cartridge with the old bullet stock and vola! new super popular loading that ignores all the optimizations of the new cartridge. A huge amount of stuff just boils down to basic economics before anything else even gets considered.

 

[Spitpatch]

Game I have taken with a 5.56 and a M16 series / CAR-15 / M4....
Deer , feral sheep , javelina and rabbit.
5.56 / .223 with a proper hunting bullet makes for a excellent hunting cartridge.
And yes...I was using proper hunting cartridges...not the FMJ ammo I was issued.
Andy

Yep. works on rabbit too.

 

[Spitpatch]

"Energy is moot..."

Never. It is the very thing that MAKES "super bullets" operate.

 

[IndyPrepper]

One reason is cost and availability. 55gr was/is military standard and there is a lot of it on the market. Who cares if it not optimal for a specific task if it is optimal for your wallet (another variable I did not even consider in my first post, but may be highly relevant to many people). This is also how other sub-optimal factory loads become standard; manufacturers have many bullets of one weight (possible for another cartridge entirely) and load up a new cartridge with the old bullet stock and vola! new super popular loading that ignores all the optimizations of the new cartridge. A huge amount of stuff just boils down to basic economics before anything else even gets considered.

Yep. works on rabbit too.

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Heh..your uniform looks just like my dads OD greens he wore back in '67/'68..brownwater navy pbr and mike boat driver in nam.