Why is .25acp so crappy?

[Blitzkrieg]

Here's one for the successful pimp.

Black Panthers commando model?

 

[Blitzkrieg]

On stopping power. I have read a report about a cop that pulled over a guy and got in a gunfight with him. The cop shot the guy 6 times in the chest with a .45. The bad guy returned fire and shot the cop once with a .25 acp. I think the bullet hit the cop in his armpit area bypassing his kevlar vest and taking out his aorta or something(not sure and can't find the report right now). The cop died at the scene and the bad guy was rushed to the hospital and ended up living. It just shows that placement is key no matter what the caliber. COM shots do not guarantee a stop. Someone can hit center of mass bunches of times and never hit the heart, liver, major vessel, etc.

Agreed, but I know of a shoot where a little guy was hassling a big man, and the little guy pulled a .25 and shot the big guy 8 times in the torso. The big guy proceeded to get very angry and nearly beat little man into a pine box. Big guy then got some paper towels, made tiny plugs, filled the tiny holes, and sat down and waited for the ambulance. He survived

 

[Blitzkrieg]

This is how you use a mouse gun for self defense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGmwhXgV_xg&feature=fvw

Note that he says up top that the guns are not effective self defense weapons. But if you carry one for that he shows how to use it.

I'm not recommending this! The following could be dangerous in your gun.

In my Astra I've been loading 1.9 grains of Bullseye under a Gold Dot 35 grain bullet, that's about as much as I can boost it and still have good reliability. It may not work in a BB as the slides are possibly a tad lighter.

The standard load is 1.3 grains Bullseye under a 50 grain RN FMJ, which puts out about 780 FPS in my gun. My load is 1.6 grains under the 50 grain FMJ.

That little Astra is more accurate than my new Sig P-238, which doesn't surprise me because I've known for a long time that the Astra is accurate.

Much better than a BB is either an Astra or Budischowsky TP-70, both these guns have good sights. The BB is smaller though. Many of these guns don't have sights at all, and the way the video is showing their use they don't need them.

A bit of practice would be in order, one wouldn't want to have a follow up investigation finding that the strikes were three feet wide of the mark.

The guy in the video makes several mistakes.. just two here that I heard in the first 40 seconds..concerning the .25 he says that "even in it's best caliber" (he should have said "loading", not caliber) and then he mistakes the stopping power rates by claiming that if one .25 to the chest has 25% rates, then 4 rounds will ensure 100% stop. It don't work that way, Charlie!

Now I'm a little further in where he says "21 feet is the maximum self defense" range.. lol

Final comment..yes, head shots are your only hope with a mousegun.. however, just try them on a moving target or at any distance

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I know you weren't. I was referring to the argument in the link you posted as well as here in this thread. Any time either side offers data to support their position, the other side counters with emotional responses (see the guy who suggested we carry slingshots instead of a .25). Like I said, neither side is really winning the debate. Those of us that like our .25 ACP's don't seem to be convincing those with their preconceived notions otherwise. Those of you who dislike the .25 haven't offered anything to change our preconceived notions. I'm just saying...

The reason I always speak up about mouseguns is that a lot of newbies will think that they are adequate self defense weapons, buy one and (some) will end up getting killed or harmed because of it. An expert can often do well with one, but few are good enough to do so, IMO

I have pulled a mousegun on 4 attackers once who were threatening to rape my wife and sister. 3 of them were wise enough to back off, one wasn't. He was clearly high on something serious, and I was fortunate enough to escape via my vehicle when one of the more sane ones pulled him off my truck door. I had left my S & W .357 in my sister's car and I told them to drive away to safety, taking my best gun with them. I will never be in that situation again. If the 4 of them had rushed me I would have been in deep doo doo

If they had rushed me in the face of my hot loaded 6 shot .357 magnum the story would have been completely different

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Hmmm.. I've been dissuaded from even considering the .25 ACP based on the common "mousegun" epithets.... now some of you guys have me reconsidering. I've seen a few Baby Brownings, and already have a definite soft spot for anything from the Browning works.... I may well have to keep my eyes peeled for a good Baby Browning. I was particularly interested in the handloading reports..... hot loads in a mousegun, eh? Truly, the mouse that roared......

I can see how, with the greater mass and balance (all steel pistol, not the half-plastic featherweight typical today) would maybe give it a decided edge in accuracy and handling. We shall see.... I've another .45 ACP to bail out of a layaway first, though..... maybe then a Roaring Mouse will take up residence at my place.....

I have Colt .25 as a collector's and conversation item, and I would never carry it for self defense

 

[Blitzkrieg]

You dissing my Raven??!!
Well, I'd take it over a sharp stick or rock any day. In well over 1000 rounds down range it has yet to fail me. It may be ugly but it is solid and I can hit a 6" grouping at 30' with it which is not bad with the short barrel. Is this a primary carry piece? Only if you have no other options. i would (and have) bet my life on it. If I recall properly, I believe the .25ACP has caused more deaths than any other caliber. It may have been passed in recent years but in the 70s and before, the Saturday Night Special was the weapon of choice for the gang bangers and n'er do wells. It can and will kill, don't kid yourselves. If you can hit what you aim at it can be an effective SD gun. I mean, look at the quality craftmanship! The wood grips set it off and it is just a nice little gun!

If you're so sure it won't do the job then volunteer to hold an apple in your mouth for me at 25' and let's see how good I am with it!

I have two Jennings, basically the same as yours but in .22LR. Both of mine are jammomatic paperweights after about 700 to 800 rds. You are at or near the common failure point for a zinc pistol..

 

[larryh1108]

I have two Jennings, basically the same as yours but in .22LR. Both of mine are jammomatic paperweights after about 700 to 800 rds. You are at or near the common failure point for a zinc pistol.

Well, we can agree to disagree about it's useful life. Also, the .22 is a lot more problematic with these guys. I clean it after every range trip and I shoot 50 per trip. The internal parts are as nice as the day I got it and the frame is solid too. You do have to spend some money on recoil springs as they tend to go after 500-800 rounds. The .25 gives a little more oomph to cycle the rounds than the .22. If it hasn't failed me after 1000 rounds and I maintain it like I do I don't see it failing any time soon. I don't reload, either, so the factory ammo is pretty tame. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[SavageGerbil]

I'd have to disagree on the Raven dying out (if springs are changed as they wear, of course)

The Raven VS Jennings is kind of form verses function, the Jennings look better, but the Raven tends to work.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I'd have to disagree on the Raven dying out (if springs are changed as they wear, of course)

The Raven VS Jennings is kind of form verses function, the Jennings look better, but the Raven tends to work.

My life is not worth the risk, caliber wars aside.. we all have to make our choices and face the consequences, right? I did have spare springs and changed them out at 500 rds.. no joy

 

[Searcher451]

I've got a Beretta Jetfire in .25 ACP that I often use as a BUG, particularly in the summer months. It's reliable, it's dependable, it's surprisingly accurate to 15 yards, and it's a classy looking piece. It's not a .45, nor is it meant to be. What's the beef?

 

[Ghost_Rider]

I have a .25acp titan bought it for $25.00 used, looks brand new. I did some ammo testing of my own. Bought some Magsafe .25acp 22gr pre-fragmentation bullets 1750fps, 150ftlbs, impressive specs for a little bullet. This test showed me specs are not everything.

http://www.magsafeonline.com/magnum_performance.html

Tested these bullets at 10ft, shot a milk jug filled with water. Expected the bullet to blow a hole into the milk jug and watch some water fly??? NOT!!!
It barely penetrated the milk jug. The jug didn't move or even jiggle. Drained the water out and shot the jug at 7ft empty, jug didn't move and you could hear the bullet/fragments rolling around in the jug, not even a dent or mark on the opposite side. Very unimpressed, "worthless" .25acp ammo. Don't waste your money!

Performed same test with factory remington 50gr, fmj and bullet passed through both sides when filled with water and the jug jiggled a bit, lol. Shot empty jug and blew it off the plywood/saw horse table we were using. After this test I only carry fmj bullets in my .25acp.

Bottom line test the ammo you are using in your .25acp. Make sure it works as advertised, don't trust spec's!

Blue Skies

Got this off another forum and thought it was pretty funny;

This tells us that you will have a much higher energy on target if you just become more proficient in throwing your empty .25 caliber handgun. (Please be sure to remove the ammunition from the handgun before throwing to avoid an accidental discharge... Safety first.)

.25 ACP Cartridge
Projectile weight - 45 gr
Projectile velocity - 804 fps
Projectile energy - 64.93 ft/lbs

.25 NAA Cartridge
Projectile weight - 35 gr
Projectile velocity - 1275 fps
Projectile energy - 127.00 ft/lbs

Thrown Handgun
Projectile weight - 5,936.88 gr
Projectile velocity - 139.36 fps
Projectile energy - 257.51 ft/lbs

Behold The Power of Mathematics!

Safety Notice - Whether it is shot or thrown, you can still put an eye out with a .25 caliber handgun!

 

[MountainBear]

Yawn, same tired arguments. Pretty sure that's at least the second time that lame thrown handgun chart has been posted in this thread. And your post started with such promise (giving you credit for 1/2 a good post)...

 

[Ghost_Rider]

Yawn, same tired arguments. Pretty sure that's at least the second time that lame thrown handgun chart has been posted in this thread. Try reading the entire thread to avoid re-posting things that weren't all that helpful in the first place. And your post started with such promise (giving you credit for 1/2 a good post)...

Geeze MountainBear bad day?? Thanks for 1/2 credit, lol

Was only stating my experience, no arguments!

"Got this off another forum and thought it was pretty funny;" I didn't say it was helpful, actually indicated it was funny............

I did read the entire thread before replying! Loosen up MountainBear.

 

[Partsproduction]

I think the worthless cartridge press is way overdone, it's a bandwagon thing. There's more power from the same length barrel than with a .22 LR but you don't see the same endless railings against the .22.

Even in a thread about shooting one for fun someone will always come in and talk about what a poor cartridge it is, the talk is all out of proportion in my opinion. My little Astra is more accurate than my new Sig P-238, now that means something to me, since, after all, all of my shooting is for fun (So far anyway).
I think this is one of those things where thoughtful people can see a pattern, and it says more about the general gun culture of modern times than about the cartridge. 75 years ago it wouldn't have been like it is, and the difference isn't all based on the weakness of the cartridge.

Obviously I'm not advocating the .25 for self defense. If I knew I'd need a handgun for that I wouldn't take a 9MM, but there are people who will gnash their teeth on you for saying that.