White Teen Ignores all Police Officer Commands, and then Dies

[x2ndxall]

Oh, I'm not siding with the officers! I'm siding against stupid, little, shat heads! Sick of them, I personally don't need 'em, don't care a whit about them!

I'm pretty much there with you. I have no respect for disrespect.
But, and I know you know this, that isn't what this is about.
We can't have things both ways.

 

[Osarion]

I don't believe anyone said "that this kid did not possess the maturity or faculties to understand what he was doing. That he was too emotional or immature to really understand the consequences of his actions". It's been offered as a possibility. As an example of why we can't have LEOs so quick to kill.

Look I'm not saying all police shootings are good and just, but you saw the video like I did. This was a tragic event, yes, but the kid forced their hand. He reached to his hip in the exact fashion of drawing a gun while advancing on them and ignoring their orders.
At this point it becomes a death threat against the police, and there can only be one response to that. Sure, as some users have said, they might have waited until they saw a gun to shoot but by that point, he could easily have gotten a shot or two off against them, even after being shot most likely.

I feel awful for this kid's family.

 

[x2ndxall]

Look I'm not saying all police shootings are good and just, but you saw the video like I did. This was a tragic event, yes, but the kid forced their hand. He reached to his hip in the exact fashion of drawing a gun while advancing on them and ignoring their orders.
At this point it becomes a death threat against the police, and there can only be one response to that. Sure, as some users have said, they might have waited until they saw a gun to shoot but by that point, he could easily have gotten a shot or two off against them, even after being shot most likely.

I feel awful for this kid's family.

We all have our opinions and they are just that, opinions. Some of us can back up our opinions with experience and some cannot. And that's fine, either way.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Getting back to a question that was asked about Autism and driving.
I teach in a class with Autistic students. My answer would be depends.
Autism is very individual. How it effects someone is almost never the same. Sure there are some things that are similar , but just how everyone is different , so it is with Autism.

I have two students who respond well to my "Sergeant voice".
( No swearing at them , just a no nonsense , clear voice.)
If I used that same voice on another student , she would not respond and perhaps get to crying.
One of my students a few years ago , took an interest in firearms and with his mother's permission I taught him basic gun safety and showed him how to shoot one of my .22 rifles.
I have a student now who is getting into guns , but I wouldn't trust him with a squirt gun let alone a real gun.

Some of the many challenges folks with Autism have in communication are:
Difficulty in picking up on social cues or body language .
Many times they can be literal in their thinking .
Often it seems they have no "governor" as it it were and say what at first seems rude or "not quite right."
Lack of eye contact.
At times seems "focused" only on one thing or theme.
At times unable to focus at the task on hand.
When under stress ( and almost any social interaction can count as stress ) they can break down and become unresponsive.
I could go on , but I hope you get my drift.
Speaking of "drift" , sorry for the thread drift LOL.
Andy

 

[The Courier]

Brutal shooting, as much as I would like to say the cops fired prematurely and too many times it was a tough situation. They identified themselves,they warned him before they shot, and he advanced anyway. I think thats the turning point for me is he moved forward into the police if he remained still I think the situation would be different. I have to agree that either nuts or intoxicated was this guy, but does every nut job and drunk deserve two in the chest and one in the head for acting like drunks and nut jobs?

 

[coop44]

evidently being drunk or stupid is a death sentence. upon reflection the officers reaction is more like a military one than a law enforcement one.

 

[JeremyK]

evidently being drunk or stupid is a death sentence. upon reflection the officers reaction is more like a military one than a law enforcement one.

Sure the military teaches the "controlled pair", I.E. Two quick shots to be delivered into the threat after the initial shooting, meant to maintain that the threat stays down and doesn't shoot the soldier/marine/sailor/airman in the back once the objective is cleared, but this individual continued reaching into his pants and therefore intimated that he may still have a weapon and may still be a threat. It is ugly business for sure but a threat, apparent or otherwise, is still a threat.

 

[Osarion]

Look at it like this, your mom gets pulled over, is stressed and begins to have an asthma attack teaches for her inhaler and is shot dead. Your retarded brother is confronted by police because he behaves "strangely" and feels he has to scratch his crotch and is shot dead. Your boss is an bubblegum and you turn him in to homeland and he spends the next ten years as abdullahs sex slave in gitmo.

The last one was just wishful thinking

Your logical fallacy is appeal to emotion (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion)

 

[CHLChris]

Maybe I'll go a different route this time, again looking at my current experience as a teacher.
1) I have a ton of students with a WIDE variety of malfunctions.
2) I have to develop, over time, through experience, varied techniques that work for each special snowflake.
3) Whenever something doesn't work, I try something new.
4) With time on my side, I am able to work well with almost all of my students.
5) None of them have the capacity to kill me or even to hurt me, really.

Police officers have to deal with an even wider assortment of people with an even greater variety of malfunctions.
1) They usually don't have time to learn what might work with this special snowflake in front of them.
2) Because of the stakes involved, they must follow their training, however inadequate it may be.
3) They read the news as we all do, completely aware that people exist everywhere who hate them and want them killed.
4) Every person can potentially hurt them or kill them at any moment during any interaction.

What I take from these two sets of facts is that we cannot expect that police officers can or should treat the public with the same patient kid-gloves with which I treat my students.

 

[JRuby]

The problem with a lot of this logic is a lack of mutual respect from the police and from the people they come in contact. The police have little concern with the rights of any one as long as they go home at night and hence the public has lost respect for the police. When the police are held to a higher standard expect more and more of this.

When a police officer does a search on the wrong house and shoots the owner or his dog for protecting the property he has worked many years of his life for and police gets off Scott free - that is now a military state.

 

[CHLChris]

@JRuby , that was an extremely good description of the other side of the coin. Wow, really good food for thought!

 

[bbbass]

My average draw from concealment time with shots on target at 7yds is 1.6sec for a single shot and 1.9 sec for a double tap. Consider that added 0.73 seconds for the officer to react and he's not going home. This is the reality! It's a dangerous job and those who think there is time to deploy sublethal munitions at that distance under those conditions are delusional.

AN EXAMINATION OF POLICE OFFICER MENTAL CHRONOMETRY:

Smith (19) conducted a study to collect baseline information on officer reaction times with duty handguns. In his study involving over 1,400 officers, he found that it took an average of 0.73 seconds for police officers to react to a visual stimulus by raising their already drawn pistols from a ready position (arms partially extended with firearm above waist level but below eye level) to a firing position and then firing one shot. Further, it took officers an average of 1.82 seconds to draw their weapons from their holster, bring it to eye level, and fire one shot. It took an average of 2.84 seconds for officers to draw and fire two rounds at a target from 7 yards away.

The findings by Tobin and Fackler have been replicated and affirmed in other studies (21-23). In fact, Lewinski (22) demonstrated that suspects can fire weapons at officers, turn and be well into their flight from the officers before the police can react and return fire.

A corollary to the plain implications of the time measurements is the difficulty an offi- cer (or any human being) has in "turning off" a reactionary decision made in the moment. In a shooting situation, once an officer decides to shoot at a suspect in response to some threatening stimulus, it is nearly impossible to abort that decision (21-22, 24-25). In fact in over 600 exam- ined cases of officer shooting decisions during a 7-year period, only one officer was identified who was able to keep himself from firing at a suspect who had already been deemed a threat and the decision to shoot had already been made

mentalchronometry (http://www.forcescience.org/mentalchronometry.html)

 

[x2ndxall]

My average draw from concealment time with shots on target at 7yds is 1.6sec for a single shot and 1.9 sec for a double tap. Consider that added 0.73 seconds for the officer to react and he's not going home. This is the reality!

You guys seem to forget that there were four supposed professionals with guns drawn, on target, fingers tight on go. How long does it take you to fire from there? I know for fact that he couldn't have gotten a shot into me before he was dead weight.

 

[U8395279]

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. This kid could have been very high functioning Autistic, we may never know.

That is highly doubtful. He had a cute girlfriend and owned guns. Those are things that Autistic people usually do not have.

 

[Ralgha]

You guys seem to forget that there were four supposed professionals with guns drawn, on target, fingers tight on go. How long does it take you to fire from there? I know for fact that he couldn't have gotten a shot into me before he was dead weight.

You know how often police (and everybody else) miss right? You're going to stake your life on him getting not just hit, but incapacitated, in less than 1.5 seconds, using up half of that time just to react?

 

[x2ndxall]

You know how often police (and everybody else) miss right?

When they're that close, standing still, sighting the target? Yes sir, I do. Almost never.

 

[x2ndxall]

That is highly doubtful. He had a cute girlfriend and owned guns.

View attachment 304173

View attachment 304174

Like I said, looks like a decent kid.

 

[U8395279]

What's funny about these threads are how much opinions vary from person to person greatly. This thread from last year was a fairly similar case, yet I had the exact opposite POV and was bringing up points the people in this recent case are. The difference in the two is this guy was advancing and wanted to fight in this recent case IMO which forced the split second decision by the LEO.

This is why we need videos. (https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/this-is-why-we-need-videos.201755/)

That is a total mischaracterization of this shooting. You need to open your eyes wider.

The BIG difference in this shooting is that they continued to pour lead into his body long after he was down on the ground, flat on his back, after being shot twice with a Beretta PX4 .40 S&W.

All I see him doing while on the ground is groping over his body, most likely an instinctive reaction to the two gunshot wounds in him. Continuing to shout orders at someone who is so severely wounded and expecting them to be able to comply is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

The 3rd and 4th shots from the .40 S&W were unnecessary, in my opinion. And the load of 00 Buckshot into his chest at the very end, no person could possibly survive that, especially when they already have 4 .40 caliber holes in their body.

Remember too, that the Fresno Police department has a record of shooting a high number of people. This was their 9th Police Shooting this year.

There was an extremely controversial shooting of an unarmed 41 yr old mentally ill Latino by the name of Freddy Centeno by Fresno PD last Sept, that the city is currently being sued over. A person had called 911, and mistakenly told police that Centeno had a gun, when in reality, he was completely unarmed. His bizarre behavior, though, had frightened the woman.

Two police cars quickly drove up to Centeno while he was walking on the sidewalk, and the officers all pulled their Berettas out. However, they mistook a water hose nozzle that he had as being a gun, and they all opened fire on him only 4 seconds after giving him the command to get down on the ground.

For failing to immediately comply with getting on the ground, the officers fired 9 shots, with 7 hitting Centeno.

Here is a video below of the Centeno shooting. What do you think of this???

 

[U8395279]

The American Civil Liberties Union labeled the Fresno Police Department as being "Trigger Happy" back in March of this year.

Here is a link to the article that they wrote about the department's record:

Do Fresno Police Have a Secrecy Problem? (https://www.aclunc.org/blog/do-fresno-police-have-secrecy-problem)

 

[U8395279]

You know how often police (and everybody else) miss right? You're going to stake your life on him getting not just hit, but incapacitated, in less than 1.5 seconds, using up half of that time just to react?

Actually, the Fresno PD has a very good record of accurate shooting.

And they carry an awesome pistol, the Beretta PX4: