- Messages
- 1,135
- Reactions
- 411
JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
When to draw?
- Thread Starter SquatchWorks
- Start date
- Messages
- 2,245
- Reactions
- 466
When I lived in Salem a few years back I was walking into the Lancaster Mall and these three hispanic kids id say around my age.. early 20's, walk up and get right in my face and my fiance's and block our way in. I smiled at them and said excuse me, well they wouldn't move... One of the guys looked at me and said WHATS YOUR BANG FOOL! I looked at my Girl and was like uhh What the **** Are these guys talking about? they continued saying that about 5 times. We finally just laughed and walked around them. They kept yelling Stuff at us (I dont know Spanish to well so I dunno what they were saying) I did have my CCW on me but it was very well covered up. That was my only "Close" encounter.
- Messages
- 177
- Reactions
- 3
Some really good info on there.
- Messages
- 602
- Reactions
- 96
- Thread Starter
- #64
I'll play along,
1st if he did break a window, I would have gotten out.
If he charged or attacked, I would create distance or block a punch, and return with an elbow or whatever. If he kept at it I would draw, and keep it in the compressed ready position aimed down. (showing the douche bad I had a GD heater) if he still wanted to play, and attacked again, I would use my free hand to block then aim him down. I'm 99% sure he would get the idea at this point and back down. At this point I would be fearing for my life if he still attacks!!!
2nd I have not a clue why someone would have so much roadrage! He was an ***!!!! I kind of hope this happens again ( with the same guy I mean) I would really enjoy spraying my new 1lb can of bear spray in his grill!!! He has it comeing if he is always like this
- Messages
- 1,254
- Reactions
- 187
Its been said several times that you have to "fear for your life" before you can even draw...
I just took my Oregon handgun safety class last weekend.... this is NOT the case, from what we were told.
what is required to justify displaying or using your own lethal force is:
the PERCEIVED threat of death or SERIOUS BODILY HARM. This was further defined as not including the extreities.. in other words, if all you can do is show the guy had the means, opportunty and intent, to break your arm, this is not the threat of serious bodily harm.
Now, when it comes to internal organs, head, neck (I am certain eyes would be included in "head), then you are justified.
Baseball bat in hand, approaching car, menacing, screaming, threatenint, any of that.. time to present. He has the means, opportunity, proximity... according to YOUR PERCEPTION at the time. The criteria are met.
Now, in this instance, having the gun ready to bring up and present, but not revealed yet, would have been fine... thus far, he had no instrument with which to break the window, the door was locked, it takes a LOT of force to smash a car's side window with a bare hand.... personally, I think I'd let the first couple of whams go... but if he seemed to be getting madder, I may think about presenting... or at least hollering "I have a gun and WILL use it.. stand down".
Glass breaks, its all over. He's done. Now he's got access to the doorlock, can open the door, grab me, smash my face, gut-punch me, release my belt and drag me out, perhaps smash my face into the pavement... at that point I can't imagine my NOT having a perceived threat of serious bodily harm. I also have a compromised neck, and very weak shoulders, so am unable to do much in personal defence... and would not be required to in any case.
The concept, mentioned above, of an agreed upon encoutner..... for that very reason I would NEVER voluntarily exit the car. Then I've either taken the aggressive part, or ansered his invitation to fight. I will never do that. I must be forced.....
It appears in this case there was no opportunity to retreat from his aggression. Stick in traffic, likelihood of harming others by driving through the intersection.... getting the cell phone on 911 about the time he exits his car, once you have an open circuit with them, you can talk to him, talk to them, let his hollering be heard... those calls are always recorded, if he's there smasing against your window, you're telling him to quit, he won't, you're describing him, you threaten that you hhave a gun and will use it.. its all recorded. He'd have a real tough row to hoe trying to get back in his car, calling the cops, and reporting man with gun threatened me. Your call would be earleir, and recorded.
This time, though, it looks like you made the right call. And that's what we're looking at. As far as it went, I'd say NOT to present was the best... now you're the only one knows you had the means to end his life... and chose not to.
Trouble is, this creep is too immature to be driving in public, vented a bit of his rage, avoided serious escalation and consequences.... but has not dealt with his ego issues. He took it that far this time.... what will it take before he snaps at someone else... maybe someone else who is not armed, or not as able to maintain control in such a confrontive situation? If I'd managed to get his numbers (and I always try hard to get that.... ) I'd have reported him anyway..... some cop stopping by to explain the nature of his bad behaviour and advise him to leave off that sort of temper tantrums might be a wake up call. Probably something they could charge him with, or threaten to, relating to getting out of his car in the roadway, anger/aggression toward another driver, that sort of thing. Or, at the very least, if he's making a habit of this sort of conduct and, say, next week someone else crosses him and he pulls somethign similar, they now have him identified.... and can see a developing pattern.
I just took my Oregon handgun safety class last weekend.... this is NOT the case, from what we were told.
what is required to justify displaying or using your own lethal force is:
the PERCEIVED threat of death or SERIOUS BODILY HARM. This was further defined as not including the extreities.. in other words, if all you can do is show the guy had the means, opportunty and intent, to break your arm, this is not the threat of serious bodily harm.
Now, when it comes to internal organs, head, neck (I am certain eyes would be included in "head), then you are justified.
Baseball bat in hand, approaching car, menacing, screaming, threatenint, any of that.. time to present. He has the means, opportunity, proximity... according to YOUR PERCEPTION at the time. The criteria are met.
Now, in this instance, having the gun ready to bring up and present, but not revealed yet, would have been fine... thus far, he had no instrument with which to break the window, the door was locked, it takes a LOT of force to smash a car's side window with a bare hand.... personally, I think I'd let the first couple of whams go... but if he seemed to be getting madder, I may think about presenting... or at least hollering "I have a gun and WILL use it.. stand down".
Glass breaks, its all over. He's done. Now he's got access to the doorlock, can open the door, grab me, smash my face, gut-punch me, release my belt and drag me out, perhaps smash my face into the pavement... at that point I can't imagine my NOT having a perceived threat of serious bodily harm. I also have a compromised neck, and very weak shoulders, so am unable to do much in personal defence... and would not be required to in any case.
The concept, mentioned above, of an agreed upon encoutner..... for that very reason I would NEVER voluntarily exit the car. Then I've either taken the aggressive part, or ansered his invitation to fight. I will never do that. I must be forced.....
It appears in this case there was no opportunity to retreat from his aggression. Stick in traffic, likelihood of harming others by driving through the intersection.... getting the cell phone on 911 about the time he exits his car, once you have an open circuit with them, you can talk to him, talk to them, let his hollering be heard... those calls are always recorded, if he's there smasing against your window, you're telling him to quit, he won't, you're describing him, you threaten that you hhave a gun and will use it.. its all recorded. He'd have a real tough row to hoe trying to get back in his car, calling the cops, and reporting man with gun threatened me. Your call would be earleir, and recorded.
This time, though, it looks like you made the right call. And that's what we're looking at. As far as it went, I'd say NOT to present was the best... now you're the only one knows you had the means to end his life... and chose not to.
Trouble is, this creep is too immature to be driving in public, vented a bit of his rage, avoided serious escalation and consequences.... but has not dealt with his ego issues. He took it that far this time.... what will it take before he snaps at someone else... maybe someone else who is not armed, or not as able to maintain control in such a confrontive situation? If I'd managed to get his numbers (and I always try hard to get that.... ) I'd have reported him anyway..... some cop stopping by to explain the nature of his bad behaviour and advise him to leave off that sort of temper tantrums might be a wake up call. Probably something they could charge him with, or threaten to, relating to getting out of his car in the roadway, anger/aggression toward another driver, that sort of thing. Or, at the very least, if he's making a habit of this sort of conduct and, say, next week someone else crosses him and he pulls somethign similar, they now have him identified.... and can see a developing pattern.
- Messages
- 125
- Reactions
- 2
ha ha , and a half dozen old beer cans intermixed with some empty copenhagen cans on the passenger floorboard next to the banjo.
- Messages
- 3,924
- Reactions
- 2,827
ha ha , and a half dozen old beer cans intermixed with some empty copenhagen cans on the passenger floorboard next to the banjo.
Cute, cityslicker.
It is my belief the the weapon does not come out of the holster until its time for someone to die. Create space, retreat if possible if not inform them that deadly force will be used (if you believe you are in danger of losing your life).
In the OP's case lower the window, pepper spray, get out kick them in the croaker sack, drive on.
In the OP's case lower the window, pepper spray, get out kick them in the croaker sack, drive on.
- Messages
- 224
- Reactions
- 50
- Messages
- 579
- Reactions
- 424
I would be willing to deploy pepper spray INTO a car from outside of it, but to deploy it from INSIDE of the car would probably be more hazardous to me than the intended target.
- Messages
- 64
- Reactions
- 7
In today's climate, where the perpetrator has most of the rights ...it's best to keep your sidearm holstered until you see commensurate force is threatened. Non-lethal implements are preferred, but event then, be prepared for litigation. It's the indirect subversion of the 2nd Amendment, I tell ya!
- Messages
- 154
- Reactions
- 37
I am a little surprised that someone carrying a gun would feel the need to ask this question, since you should have considered all this in gruesome detail and be quite clear in your own mind on the proper course of action long before you decided to carry a firearm in the first place. That said, lets take a look at the situation.
An "assault" is nothing more than the threat to do one bodily harm, but usually needs to be coupled with an apparent intent and present ability to carry out the threat. Example is I say I am going to beat you to death and I am standing there swinging an aluminum baseball bat in a menacing way. Battery is actually carrying out a physical attack on someone's person or merely the act of trying to do so. Example is I whack you with my bat or swing at you but miss. Both assault and battery are prosecutable in criminal and often civil courts.
Sounds like you might be able to claim assault, depending on whether a threat was made and whether his intent and ability to carry out the threat were present. Battery probably not.
Most knowledgeable folks would say never pull a gun unless you are certain of the imminent need to use it (ie never pull one for threat or intimidation). You must be reasonably sure that a potentially deadly threat is about to be carried out on your person and your continued good health or survival is in imminent jeopardy). To be justifiable you must be demonstrably in fear for your life AND have no other reasonable course of action (like sitting tight with your windows up and doors locked or just driving away).
Based on what you said, you definitely did not have a reason to shoot the person or draw a weapon, so you'd best keep your weapon concealed, and shouldn't even hint you had one, since such could potentially be interpreted as a threat or assault on your part.
Best of all, dial 911 and report your situation--ie don't fake it, do it. Get the guy's license plate number. Get the licence plates of possible witnesses. Use your cell phone to record what was said, and/or take pictures. Get a good description of the guy and what he said and did. Otherwise stay in your car, try to stay calm, and be ready for any escalation. But don't let him bait you into reacting in a way that could come back on you. Be smart and let him hang himself while you document his actions and wait for police.
If he has a bat, is threatening to take your head off, and breaks the window to the car and tries to get at you with it, and you can't escape by other means, by all means throw down and drop the sucker. When you pull the trigger it is key that you are not trying to kill him but just to stop him from what he is doing and that's what you tell the police and the jury when the time comes to do so. That doesn't mean shoot him in the leg. Shoot him wherever it will be most effective in stopping the attack. Above all, keep in mind you may have to convince a jury/judge that you were in reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death, and that you had no other course of action (such as escape by just driving away). If you do end up in a shooting, once you are sure the threat is gone, unload your gun, put it somewhere out of sight, and wait for the police. Most definitely don't have it in hand when the police arrive. Additional good advice is to talk with your attorney before giving any statement to the police and have him present when you do so.
Finally, for most normal people, taking another person's life (even when it is clearly justifiable) is a life altering event, and is a very negative experience that you will carry with you the rest of your life. You need to be absolutely sure it was necessary if you kill someone, and even then there is a serious emotional price to pay when it happens. What if the guy was normally a nice person and was just having a bad day, like he got fired, his mom died, or his dog was run over? What if he was a single father and sole support of 3 little kids? Like I said at the beginning, one should seriously consider all this and know what the right answers are BEFORE you go out in the world armed, and you unequivocally know the right answers without the need to ask some website after the fact.
An "assault" is nothing more than the threat to do one bodily harm, but usually needs to be coupled with an apparent intent and present ability to carry out the threat. Example is I say I am going to beat you to death and I am standing there swinging an aluminum baseball bat in a menacing way. Battery is actually carrying out a physical attack on someone's person or merely the act of trying to do so. Example is I whack you with my bat or swing at you but miss. Both assault and battery are prosecutable in criminal and often civil courts.
Sounds like you might be able to claim assault, depending on whether a threat was made and whether his intent and ability to carry out the threat were present. Battery probably not.
Most knowledgeable folks would say never pull a gun unless you are certain of the imminent need to use it (ie never pull one for threat or intimidation). You must be reasonably sure that a potentially deadly threat is about to be carried out on your person and your continued good health or survival is in imminent jeopardy). To be justifiable you must be demonstrably in fear for your life AND have no other reasonable course of action (like sitting tight with your windows up and doors locked or just driving away).
Based on what you said, you definitely did not have a reason to shoot the person or draw a weapon, so you'd best keep your weapon concealed, and shouldn't even hint you had one, since such could potentially be interpreted as a threat or assault on your part.
Best of all, dial 911 and report your situation--ie don't fake it, do it. Get the guy's license plate number. Get the licence plates of possible witnesses. Use your cell phone to record what was said, and/or take pictures. Get a good description of the guy and what he said and did. Otherwise stay in your car, try to stay calm, and be ready for any escalation. But don't let him bait you into reacting in a way that could come back on you. Be smart and let him hang himself while you document his actions and wait for police.
If he has a bat, is threatening to take your head off, and breaks the window to the car and tries to get at you with it, and you can't escape by other means, by all means throw down and drop the sucker. When you pull the trigger it is key that you are not trying to kill him but just to stop him from what he is doing and that's what you tell the police and the jury when the time comes to do so. That doesn't mean shoot him in the leg. Shoot him wherever it will be most effective in stopping the attack. Above all, keep in mind you may have to convince a jury/judge that you were in reasonable fear of serious bodily harm or death, and that you had no other course of action (such as escape by just driving away). If you do end up in a shooting, once you are sure the threat is gone, unload your gun, put it somewhere out of sight, and wait for the police. Most definitely don't have it in hand when the police arrive. Additional good advice is to talk with your attorney before giving any statement to the police and have him present when you do so.
Finally, for most normal people, taking another person's life (even when it is clearly justifiable) is a life altering event, and is a very negative experience that you will carry with you the rest of your life. You need to be absolutely sure it was necessary if you kill someone, and even then there is a serious emotional price to pay when it happens. What if the guy was normally a nice person and was just having a bad day, like he got fired, his mom died, or his dog was run over? What if he was a single father and sole support of 3 little kids? Like I said at the beginning, one should seriously consider all this and know what the right answers are BEFORE you go out in the world armed, and you unequivocally know the right answers without the need to ask some website after the fact.
- Messages
- 22
- Reactions
- 0
Avoidance, and retreat is my motto. Here is a rather disturbing video that involves people being attacked in a car, now ask yourself "What would I do?"
Video Link IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR YOUNG VIEWERS.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/148180/jamaican_gangster_goes_crazy_in_las_vegas/
Video Link IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR YOUNG VIEWERS.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/148180/jamaican_gangster_goes_crazy_in_las_vegas/
- Messages
- 101
- Reactions
- 1
Good points. I always carry mace in the drivers side door. The Kimber Pepperblaster is good for up to 176°, and it's considered a non-lethal weapon on the continuum of force.
I've often wondered if one of those rear vision mounted camera/mirror combo's would be a good idea. You can get a model that has up to 5 internal and external cameras, somewhat like this one, plus a built in DVR.
http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/car-camera-recorder.html
Unfortunately they are pretty expensive, but probably cheaper than a lawyer.
I've often wondered if one of those rear vision mounted camera/mirror combo's would be a good idea. You can get a model that has up to 5 internal and external cameras, somewhat like this one, plus a built in DVR.
http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/car-camera-recorder.html
Unfortunately they are pretty expensive, but probably cheaper than a lawyer.
I'd let him meet my best friend, Mr. Springfield. 180 gr Gold Dot HP's would stop the situation quickly.
- Messages
- 157
- Reactions
- 5
I personally don't believe in informing a perp that I have a weapon and intend to use deadly force. By doing so, you've just given away your hole-card. You are better off saying 'go away'... 'leave me alone'... 'I am feeling threatened and will defend myself'.
Just my .02
- Messages
- 157
- Reactions
- 5
Overkill IMO and prohibitively expensive for most... Unless you are some superstar, public figure, etc. utilization of such devices borders on paranoia and could work against you during legal proceedings.
It is all about what a reasonable person would do given the same set of circumstances.
- Messages
- 157
- Reactions
- 5
Just keep the car moving. As you say, avoidance. The guy was beating on the car, not people. You CANNOT use deadly force to protect property (Except in Texas, and then only after dark.) Scary, yes. Life threatening, no. (Although when he was beating on the rear of the vehicle, I would have been very tempted to put it in reverse and stomp on the accelerator... just trying to get clear of the area of course. ha ha)
- Messages
- 317
- Reactions
- 50
I saw the same thing as I watched, only difference is that I saw that rear window as a way for him to gain entry, and if he's sticking around the back of the car where I can't see him I might feel very threatened and endangered that he's coming through that rear window. So I'd have been in reverse and on the gas in a heart beat.
Similar threads
Upcoming Events
New Classified Ads
-
SMITH AND WESSON 52-2! 38 MASTER SPECIAL MID RANGE EXC COND IN THE BOX!- Started by gprippers
- Replies: 0
-
-
Aero Precision 300 Blackout 8inch complete upper- Started by Hunter340
- Replies: 0
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
