When to draw?

[Member 5605]

Let me throw some more fuel on this fire.
A friend of mine was in a similar situation. Unintentionally cut off a guy in a pickup. ?There were two others with him. They followed him for several miles until he got caught in traffic at a light. One guy jumps out and comes up along side with a baseball bat. My friend was carrying and saw him coming. He did not show anything but just waited. When the guy came up to the window he just broke it with the bat. This created thousands of shards which flew into my friends face, getting some in his eyes. He couldn't see anything or do anything. Fortunately, the light turned, the guy ran back to his truck and drove around and away.
The police came and took a report but still have not found anything. My friends eyes took a long time and some expense the heal.
He was never really in a position to draw based on what has been said here. But, If he had his gun out maybe this guy would have seen it and retreated before braking the window?

Interesting situation.

The man had the ability, was walking towards so he was gaining the opportunity, how close is too close for that justification?

I mean would a pull in that situation simply to disarm and de-escalate?

You draw, tell him to stop. Had he stopped and submitted? Then what?

Call? You insist it was the threat of violence?

 

[usrifle]

Interesting situation.

The man had the ability, was walking towards so he was gaining the opportunity, how close is too close for that justification?

I mean would a pull in that situation simply to disarm and de-escalate?

You draw, tell him to stop. Had he stopped and submitted? Then what?

Call? You insist it was the threat of violence?

If i'm in that situation, he's enraged and avancing on my vehicle with a bat, i would have drawn and gotten out before he got to me!
(If i had time, otherwise i would have drawn and he would have seen the barrel before swinging..)
That's a deadly threat using a bat, he swings (or get's close enough to)...and i pull the trigger.
Just my .02
usrifle

 

[dobeman]

Bat or multiple assailents = justification of force... broken window or not

not necessarily *deadly* force. Would go back to jeopardy: were the assailants making it very clear through what they were saying or threatening that they were going to kill him or beat the cr*p out of him? or simply intent on banging up his car/truck? You can't necessarily assume a road rage doofus with a bat is intent on killing you and just shoot him dead premptively.

 

[brausso]

Let me throw some more fuel on this fire.
A friend of mine was in a similar situation. Unintentionally cut off a guy in a pickup. ?There were two others with him. They followed him for several miles until he got caught in traffic at a light. One guy jumps out and comes up along side with a baseball bat. My friend was carrying and saw him coming. He did not show anything but just waited. When the guy came up to the window he just broke it with the bat. This created thousands of shards which flew into my friends face, getting some in his eyes. He couldn't see anything or do anything. Fortunately, the light turned, the guy ran back to his truck and drove around and away.
The police came and took a report but still have not found anything. My friends eyes took a long time and some expense the heal.
He was never really in a position to draw based on what has been said here. But, If he had his gun out maybe this guy would have seen it and retreated before braking the window?

I guess an another issue is, when is it okay to draw vs the use of deadly force. Yes, you never draw a gun unless you fully intend to use is to protect your life or someone else. What are the legal ramifications of drawing your gun vs the actually using deadly force? Are they the same?

 

[Member 5605]

I guess an another issue is, when is it okay to draw vs the use of deadly force. Yes, you never draw a gun unless you fully intend to use is to protect your life or someone else. What are the legal ramifications of drawing your gun vs the actually using deadly force? Are they the same?

me thinks you've stumbled upon a valid question. Wouldn't prevention be enough?

You can't necessarily assume a road rage doofus with a bat is intent on killing you and just shoot him dead premptively.

Yes but would a draw be justified? To prevent? (without using force.. finger on slide)

 

[dobeman]

me thinks you've stumbled upon a valid question. Wouldn't prevention be enough?

Yes but would a draw be justified? To prevent? (without using force.. finger on slide)

good question. If you can't tell, I've been really affected by the reading on www.corneredcat.com. In there, one of the links, is to a story about someones adventure at Wal Mart. In that scenario, the guy was followed out to a Wal Mart parking lot by two punks, he felt threatened, and he pulled his 45 out on them, didn't fire. They ran. Cop wrote up report and basically gave him an attaboy for being armed. He was in Louisiana.

 

[matt_w]

Yes but would a draw be justified? To prevent? (without using force.. finger on slide)

Drawing your weapon unprovoked in Oregon is considered "Menacing" isn't it?

163.190
(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if by word or conduct the person intentionally attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious physical injury.

(2) Menacing is a Class A misdemeanor. [1971 c.743 §95]

If someone tells you that they are about to kick your ***, isn't that the same crime? If you are drawing your weapon to prevent said *** kicking, it could probably be argued either way.

 

[Member 5605]

edited because I'm a dee-dee-dee...

 

[BlvdKing]

I guess an another issue is, when is it okay to draw vs the use of deadly force. Yes, you never draw a gun unless you fully intend to use is to protect your life or someone else. What are the legal ramifications of drawing your gun vs the actually using deadly force? Are they the same?

The biggest (best case scenario) difference is:
Drawing your weapon you may have a police officer call you after the fact and take down your side of the story.
Using deadly force you will go to jail for the day/night and most likely have to retain counsel and prove you were justified to use deadly force to either the DA or possibly a jury. Plus you will most likely have to deal with a civil suit.

 

[Riot]

This brings an interesting point can you draw your pistol sitting in your seat with your seat belt on? I prefer to un-holster my pistol as I am getting into the car. Sure it may not be the best but it works. As long as you have control of your pistol and in any type of situation you want to be able to put the front sight post center mass as fast as possible. If someone is trying to open my door in the process of yelling and screaming is going to get at least a car door in the balls and a good shot of the .40 caliber projectile siting in battery. Thats just the way I run things. Results may vary.

I unholster it as well and usually put it under my seat or I sit on it and tuck it under my thigh.

 

[Hawaiian]

You can not use deadly physical force just because some guy punched you in the nose. There are too many 'what if's' that come into play. His size, your age, words, threats made. If you are carrying a concealed handgun, you need to do some real research on this for yourself and do not believe the opinions you read on internet forums. I know I am certainly not qualified to advise you on a subject as serious and life changing as this one.

OFA, Oregon Firearms Academy, does have a legal class on this subject. You might want to check it out.

 

[milwaukieman]

Redcap, careful with that stuff, could be charged with assault with a deadly weapon with a crow bar just as easy as a pistol.

+1

All of those items mentioned are absolutely deadly.

 

[Redcap]

+1

All of those items mentioned are absolutely deadly.

So is a ballpoint pen.

 

[MDH]

A couple of things I've noticed people missed so far. ANYTIME you draw a firearm on another person, YOU call the police. "The first guy to call in is innocent, anyone who doesn't is guilty." While this is not true, it certainly is a common attitude. The only thing they have to go on is what they've heard so far, and you know the other guy isn't going to be singing your praises. And the hassle of explaining that you just pointed a gun at another person is nothing compared to the hassle of defending your actions after he calls it in.

Also, be wary of equipping a vehicle with pepper spray. Temps in cars regularly reach the 130-140 range during the summer, and can (and have) caused many pepper canisters to rupture. I support pepper as a useful deterrent, but I reccomend taking it out of the car when you go.

 

[Riddick]

IMO, I agree that the best way to deal with Road ragers is to leave your window up, stop and whip out your cell phone (of course weapon is unholstered but still hidden). Make it obvious that you are giving the plate number to the police. Then stay (and keep him there) until the police arrive.

Be sure to make specific note of the threats made so it can be provided to the officer (and provide to 911 so that they might actually dispatch an officer and not blow you off)

If they don't dispatch an officer than drive to a public place such as a police or fire station. Obviously you don't want to lead the rager home.

The only time I show my weapon is if I intend to use it. The only time you can use it is if you or defending another are in IMMEDIATE life threatening danger.

IE BG broke the window and is trying to pull you out of the car.
IE BG walks up to car with baseball bat and breaks the window.
IE BG points a gun at you.
IE BG grabs you from behind while walking down the street

Remember, it's alot more difficult to prove what someone was "going" to as opposed to what they "did" do.

A black eye is alot more convincing to a jury of your peers as to why you had to use lethal force.

 

[RVNvet]

This brings an interesting point can you draw your pistol sitting in your seat with your seat belt on? (snip)

That's one of the reasons I always carry in a belly band. I can have my weapon out before I come to a stop, even with the seat belt on. (Also, it's very, very comfortable!)

Max

 

[SquatchWorks]

Well, Thanks again for the comments!!! I will and have done some research on this, I will stand by my actions in this incident. But Next time I will be ready with pepper spray. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 or however the saying goes... If he would have broken a window, or any other means of gaining access to my or my family. I would have met him out of the car with my 45. If he then decided to attack me, I would have taken actions to stop the attack, even if that means having to shoot. Just so everyone knows, I have no trouble drawing my pistol, even with the seatbelt on, in the car!! my holster has a heavy cant on it so there is no problem there, I may see about the "belly band" for my bersa though. I hope I never have to think, or deal with this type of thing again. I would hate to have someone dumb enough to test my judgement on self defence. My wife doesent ever want to talk about hypothetical attacks, or breakin's. She maintains she will know what to do. I keep pushing her and pushing her, and this last event (the car thing) has changed that alot!! and that is a good thing, we can now talk about not if but when this kind of thing happens. And I will have my insurance policy chambered in 45 in my holster, as well as a can of pepper spray near by.

 

[dobeman]

I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 or however the saying goes... If he would have broken a window, or any other means of gaining access to my or my family. I would have met him out of the car with my 45. If he then decided to attack me, I would have taken actions to stop the attack, even if that means having to shoot.

further food for thought.. say the scenario plays out as you describe. He breaks your side window. You get out. He's raging, spewing obscenities at you, he even calls you a p*&$$y. He's unarmed. Looks kinda big. You are big. You shoot him to "stop the attack". You would be hard-pressed in the court to prove jeopardy, not to mention ability. I'd be hesitant to be so cavalier about shooting under such a scenario, unless the guy is coming at you with a gun, does the steps you describe, and is saying he's going to kill you (and you gotta laugh - can you imagine someone so out of control to be threatening to kill someone for cutting him off in traffic?).

 

[KENOC]

It comes down to 'can you likely convince a jury you feared for your life'? I would say it depends on what he did and did he have a weapon? If he is coming at you with a baseball bat and you cannot flee and retreat, drawing/shooting MAY be justified. If he is unarmred, then no way.

 

[no time]

Most of us have cell phones...
Most of our cell phones have cameras...
A simple picture of this idiot screaming at you thru the window might go a long ways towards convincing law enforcement that the guy was a threat. A video would be better...but I can never remember how to get the phone to do that...

I believe you were right not to draw! As it turns out, the threat was not carried out, so shooting the idiot probably wasn't needed. I say probably, because the clown just got away with scaring the spit out of someone...the next time he might get braver and actually do damage. I betcha staring down the barrel of a .45 would have changed his attitude. Chances are that seeing the weapon would have ended the threat...and you can count on the fact that it would have cured the fellers road rage for years...

Probably...