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When to draw?

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by Iansstud, Jan 28, 2010.

  1. Iansstud

    Iansstud SW WA / PDX Member

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    I was in my car and in the right lane, I needed to get over to the left, I put my blinker on and the car behind me let me in (or so I thought) Turns out his car stalled but he still thinks he should have been before me....

    He started honking and flipping me the bird double handed while driving forward... we get to the next light and he takes off his seatbelt, gets out of the car and comes up to the window.

    he was screaming at me to roll down the window and trys to open my door (I lock my car door every time I get in and have trained the wife to do so as well.) He kept knocking on the glass.

    I had my right hand on my hip with my thumb on the safety lever of a USP Compact 45. I never pulled the pistol out or even showed that I had one.

    After about 30 sec he decided that I wasent interested in a fistfight in the middle of the road. He went back to his POS car and followed me for a bit then drove off...



    I now have 3 concerns.......

    1: Should I have pulled my pistol out? (I feel like If I'm going to draw, I had better be ready shoot/Kill) I would have drove off if he stayed there longer. If he had broke the window, or opened the door, I would have pulled my gun...

    2: This all happened in my wifes car, (Very Very easy to spot car (only 2 in the town I live in.(there are also only 500 of that color ever made) And to top it off, the wife wont carry a gun... Even after I told her this... this brings me to concern 3

    3: Next time this happens I will have a Large can of Bear mace ready to mace his *** should this happen again. I will have a can in every car/truck. good or bad idea?
     
  2. matt_w

    matt_w Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    You should have gotten out to fight me!

    I'd go for the mace personally. Either that or pull out your phone like you are calling 911.

    A good question though, if your door had been unlocked and he had gotten it open and pulled you out of your car, is there a case for drawing your weapon? Maybe someone else knows this...
     
  3. bikemaniac1

    bikemaniac1 Portland Oregon Member

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    I second the phone idea. Yes he was being aggressive, but he wasn't currently threatening your life. If he had escalated and broken your window it would be very different. Under the circumstances that were there I think drawing down on him would be an overly aggressive move and you might find yourself in trouble. This being said I am not an expert on CC laws.
     
  4. dobeman

    dobeman Hillsboro Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    anyone toting a handgun should checkout this website before you pull the gun... www.corneredcat.com. Great information here. Lots to think about. Need to start thinking in terms of A-O-J: Ability - Opportunity - Jeopardy. It's how it will be dealt with in a legal proceeding.
     
  5. usrifle

    usrifle washington Member

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    While he certainly needed some "Anger management" classes, that was not a "draw" situation.
    If he had broken the glass/opened the door and assaulted you, the question still would be..."Were you in fear for your life?"
    If you could drive away from the "attack", the answer was no....If he had no weapon, and was screaming "I'll kill you" as he attacked you...Probably yes.
    What would a "reasonable" person have done in the same situation?....That would be a legal question.
    Glad it ended well for you.
    usrifle
     
  6. Cougfan2

    Cougfan2 Hillsboro, OR Well-Known Member

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    Excellent site. I recommend it as well.
     
  7. Karma

    Karma the woods in Oregon Active Member

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    Ya, I don't think it was a draw situation. I think there needs to be legal reform so that a person can legally dispense a beat down when another person demonstrates that they are in desperate need of one. lol.
     
  8. bikemaniac1

    bikemaniac1 Portland Oregon Member

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    If he had broken your window and yanked you out of your car, then you would be legally permitted to throw down. Like stated above, even if he did yank you out, was he threatening you life? If he was just wanting to throw fists then it would probably be frowned on to draw on him. Was he saying anything along the lines of "I'll kill you."
     
  9. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    A verbal demand that he back away with a warning that you have a gun could be an acceptable reaction. If he was attempting to open your door then he was intent on inflicting bodily harm. That's an escalation that would warrant the safety off and verbal warning. I appendix carry, so the guy would have easily seen that action and then decided what he was going to do.

    The only down side is that if he was armed then you're looking at a gun fight.
     
  10. Tactical SS

    Tactical SS Washington Member

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    I don't think it was a draw situation either. Now if both of you had been outside the car and we was swinging you may have been able to draw, but I don't think fists (legally - with exceptions obviously) are considered a deadly weapon. He would have been a fool to stick around if you had pulled it, but let's say he did. Let's say he felt threatened by you pulling a gun and pulled a knife, or gun. Then who is to say he can't shoot you for posing a deadly threat to him. I know he was the instigator in the violence that caused you to fear great bodily harm... but if no witnesses stop it's you against him in the legal proceedings.

    Not to say don't draw until the knife is an inch into you, but you see what I'm saying.
     
  11. RVNvet

    RVNvet Beaverton Member

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    This is one of those threads I like to see: it makes people think about what they'd do, and that helps them be more prepared.

    You handled it right, in my opinion. Scenario...you pull/flash your weapon. He is a CHL holder (or not) and pulls his and shoots you dead. He walks, because you were the one who escalated the situation to 'threat of deadly physical force.'

    Max
     
  12. branchbuster

    branchbuster Albany Active Member

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    I agree it was a good choice not to draw. If you had he now knows you are armed AND strapped in. He could return to his car and get a gun or just draw from there. My feeling is to draw after you feel it is time to shoot or if the situation requires the threat of deadly force.
     
  13. twoclones

    twoclones Tri-Cities, WA Well-Known Member

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    You draw your firearm to save your life or to shoot paper targets. A loud mouth jerk outside of your locked car door is an annoyance rather than a life threat. It's my opinion that displaying your weapon any time is a bad idea. I'd hope that a real threat to me or my family would hear my weapon before they saw it...
     
  14. dobeman

    dobeman Hillsboro Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    so let give it the A-O-J analysis:

    Did the guy have the ability to kill you are do serious bodily harm? He was not brandishing any kind of weapon, otherwise, spouting off at the mouth is not ability.

    Opportunity: yes, he had the opportunity. He was one smashed in window away from you and you were trapped in your car with little room to escape.

    Jeopardy: would any reasonable person in the same situation come to the same conclusions that use of deadly force was unavoidable? were you convinced to certaintly that the guy intended to kill or seriously harm you? Doesn't sound like it.

    So two pieces are missing: Ability and Jeopardy. Had you pulled your gun and say it went off out of reflex or accident and you killed the guy, you would be up on murder charges. At least your life would be severely complicated defending yourself if you even stayed out of jail.
     
  15. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    A lot on here have said that you did the right thing. Only change I would have made is possibly using left hand to dial police while right hand was holding e-brake lever (near holster) but keeping at a minimum to escalate.


    I also appreciate the real world situations that help the rest of us really think about what we would do. Nothing hypothetical, just real life.

    I have had experience with irate people, I even asked one to leave their own house while I spoke with his wife about the situation. It's about remaining calm and staying focused. Things happen when you see 'red' and there's no turning back when JHPs are loaded.
     
  16. pioneer461

    pioneer461 Columbia County, Oregon Active Member

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    You did the correct thing. The best way to win a gun fight is to not get into one. I usually try to stop my car so I can maneuver and get away if I need to, but that's not always possible.

    police.png
     
  17. BlvdKing

    BlvdKing Almost Boring Member

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    When presented with an situation like this everybody seems to be on the same page (error on the side of caution.) If you follow guidelines similar to LE called "Force Continuum" you will most likely not have any major issues in court if you do have to use your weapon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum

    With the bear mace idea just make sure you carry in properly in your vehicle and know how to deploy it properly given the threat scenario.
     
  18. feedyourhead

    feedyourhead Salem New Member

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    I would of kicked my door open with enough force to knock him back and then id draw.
     
  19. milwaukieman

    milwaukieman SE Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Was there not an opening in traffic for you just to drive away? As soon as he exited his vehicle, that's what I would be trying to do.
     
  20. dirtysteve

    dirtysteve Lincoln City, OR Member

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    I had a similar situation the other day. A guy was blasting an annoying sub woofer WAY beyond the legal sound limit and of course he got a dirty look from me because he woke up my baby in the back seat. He then felt tough enough to crank it behind me a the light while flipping me off and honking his horn. I just laughed at what a fool he was proving himself to be until he got out of his car. I sat patiently thinking of how to handle him without a fist fight in front of my wife and child. Of course I am very prepared to run his *** over slightly if he thinks hes opening my door but he did not. He just proved to be an idiot and got back into his car to follow me around town. Makes me think of better things to have with you other than a gun for idiots like him. Yes, a gun is great to have but like everyone says, dont draw unless your ready to shoot. Sometimes fights are unavoidable and you have to defend yourself. I would have loved to soak him down with bear spray and watch him squirm or kick his teeth in after I tased him but I dont always have that luxury. People like him are annoying and I WILL NEVER FIGHT THEM FAIR! They can get thrown out with the rest of the trash in society. Its good to often have a reminder on how people act over something stupid. Life is too short.