What gun/caliber to oppose an active shooter?

[Riot]

From most accounts that I have heard, these active shooter cowards will shoot themselves at the first sign of resistance. So you might try pointing your finger at them and saying "bang".

This is horrible advice...and apparently you've never heard of the Tacoma Mall Shooting in 2005

During the course of the shooting, Brendan (Dan) McKown, a legally armed citizen, intervened. McKown drew his 9mm CZ pistol and verbally commanded Maldonado to put down his gun. Maldonado's response was to fire on McKown, striking him once in the leg and four times in the torso, damaging McKown's spine and leaving him paralyzed. In addition to McKown, five other people were shot but not seriously injured, and a seventh person received a non-gunshot injury. At least one other person in the mall at the time also pulled a gun on Maldonado but did not fire for fear of hitting innocent bystanders.

Tacoma Mall shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do not take an active shooter lightly. Although they are cowards in the most extreme form (shooting innocent bystanders for no reason other than to cause carnage) they are a deadly threat and should be met with deadly force.

 

[Bob D]

These shooters are not drug-jacked Juggernauts incapable of fealing fear and pain and bent on total destruction. In fact, I would wager that fear is something that they generally feel more than the rest of us. They're little cowards wearing masks who are so frightened of life and the daily problems that come with it that they choose to end their lives in the most horrible way possible, attempting to establish some last desperate form of control over their life.

If you hit one of them in the foot with a .22, he'd probably shyte himself and either surrender or run to the nearest corner and shoot himself.

These are not Spetsnaz operatives. They are not even Muslim extremists, religiously motivated to martyr themselves and kill the infidel. They are scared little boys who never grew up. They most often don't know how to efficiently use their weapons, and are incredibly scared of being taken alive. Give them any reason to think they've lost the upper hand, and they'll cower in fear. There will be no heroic Butch-and-Sundance moment. They have intended to take their own lives the entire time. A .380 will be just as effective as a .45, they don't know the difference and won't continue to fight after they realize someone's shooting back.

 

[jauguston]

Trouble is you never know what catagory the person with the gun YOU are facing is in.

 

[Bob D]

If he's in a mall, dressed in black, shooting an AR-15, he's not a trained killer, he's an idiot.

 

[WhyteCheddar]

This is horrible advice...and apparently you've never heard of the Tacoma Mall Shooting in 2005



Tacoma Mall shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do not take an active shooter lightly. Although they are cowards in the most extreme form (shooting innocent bystanders for no reason other than to cause carnage) they are a deadly threat and should be met with deadly force.

This.

Why would anyone give an 'active shooter' a chance? Clear safe shot? don't warn him, put him to sleep.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Is this question somehow different from "what gun to bring to a gunfight"?
If you're talking just gun, well you'd of course want one with tremendous power, firepower and accuracy since no one has a reliable magic 8-ball.
If one were to attach conditions/knowns, it'd be likely different.. it'd depend.

 

[Rotty]

This is horrible advice...and apparently you've never heard of the Tacoma Mall Shooting in 2005



Tacoma Mall shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do not take an active shooter lightly. Although they are cowards in the most extreme form (shooting innocent bystanders for no reason other than to cause carnage) they are a deadly threat and should be met with deadly force.

Having been in a situation like this nearly 20 years ago I agree with this wholeheartedly. Gun caliber is irrelevant. Sight picture, bullet placement, keeping your cool will make a world of difference. The tough part is keeping your cool. Pointing your gun at a target no problem. Pointing your gun at a person with the intent to end them. That's where all bets are off unless you train for stressful encounters like that on a regular basis. I haven't trained real world scenarios at all for nearly 20 years. If I was faced today with a situation I could not say for sure how I would react. Would the "Old School" kick in and take out Joe Schmuck dirt bag or would I not. I hope not to Find out. But I am prepared the best that I can be.

 

[Sirmohawk]

I would definitely carry a 9mm like a G17 to have in an active shooter situation. Long enough barrel to be accurate and high enough capacity to keep you going. Sure a .357 or .45 acp are ideal for stoppage but IMO they have too much recoil and not enough capacity. Some will say I only need 8 or six, sure with one perp maybe but would if there is more?

I know that anything with in 30 feet of my pistol moving or not would be hit and with it's accuracy and low recoil I would feel most comfortable in battle with it the the above mentioned calibers. The teeny tiny DB or khar maybe kel tec's will get the job done in the hands of the right operator but I would not carry those.

Of course I am a professional operator with ice water running through my veins.

In all seriousness I would say there is no ideal caliber or pistol for everyone in that situation, it boils down to what gun/caliber is most comfortable and accurate for you the individual.

 

[coop44]

Whatever you can hit him with in a vital organ, like perhaps the brain. the biggest reason I practice with B2 targets, keep your hits in the black.

 

[erudne]

Whatever you can hit him with in a vital organ, like perhaps the brain. the biggest reason I practice with B2 targets, keep your hits in the black.

OOOH! Dat Be Racist!
Your gonna be fighting w/whatever firearm you have on you, if it happens to have a Laser you can blind him while poking holes in the Perp's head

 

[ZigZagZeke]

If I believed all the admonitions I've heard about how this active shooter is determined, expert, amped-up, immune to pain, invincibly crazy I'd never carry a weapon. The truth is he's usually not well trained, not familiar with actually shooting his weapon, not familiar with tactics, and scared to death (once he understands he has opposition).

Extensive experience in combat training situations has taught me a few things:

1. You will rarely have time to actually use your sights at close range unless your opponent doesn't know where you are.
2. You WILL NOT hit anything when you yourself are moving.
3. Especially against multiple opponents, flank, flank, and flank some more. Being stationary is the best way to die.
4. You can never have too much ammunition.
5. The most accurate shooter wins, regardless of anything else.

 

[Bob D]

5. The most accurate shooter wins, regardless of anything else.

I always say that the first accurate shooter wins.

 

[cascadianliberty2012]

Springfield XD .45ACP: 13+1 of .45... that's plenty.

 

[cascadianliberty2012]

This is horrible advice...and apparently you've never heard of the Tacoma Mall Shooting in 2005



Tacoma Mall shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do not take an active shooter lightly. Although they are cowards in the most extreme form (shooting innocent bystanders for no reason other than to cause carnage) they are a deadly threat and should be met with deadly force.

This guy failed by giving a murderer a chance to "surrender" himself. No, you don't do that. You shoot the assailant, and kill him. Even in the back, who cares when he's aiming at someone else.

 

[Das boot]

Some food for thought,

Tyler courthouse shooting...Bad guy with an AK kills his ex outside of a courthouse and gets into a shootout with police. Civilian carrying a .45 sees this, takes cover and shoots. His shots find their mark but unfortunately the bad guy is wearing a vest. Civilian is forced to take cover as the lunatic returns fire and starts walking towards him. Civilian pops out from his cover and shoots with his .45 again, more hits to no effect. He is then wounded by AK fire, flanked by the gunman and executed. Gunman drives away and dies in a shootout with police. Civilian was the previous owner of an indoor shooting range, so was no untrained kid with a gun in his pocket. The power of adrenaline to numb pain is something to keep in mind when you think your hand gun caliber will "stun" and cause enough pain to disable those even wearing a vest.

"What caliber is best to take on the next suicidal psychopath" are not discussions I remember ever having to have in my youth..strange days these are.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I've mentioned that shoot before.. only back of the head or neck shots might have stopped the shooter. I would assume any perp has a vest. He was eventually chased down by cops in squad cars and finally taken down on the open HWY. The final chase is on video and probably could be found with a google search

Easy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lvw8QR26Kc

IMO the only way for a citizen to stop him was with a well aimed rifle shot or 3 from a distance. This was one of the shoots that caused me to start packing a Mini 14 in my trunk

 

[ThePhonMan]

This story offers an interesting perspective on the active shooter scenario. I would suggest that the choice to engage or not is based on several factors for each individual. One such factor is the desire to end the bloodshed being perpetrated by the shooter. With that single factor as a consideration, the concealed carry individual in this story did just that. He stopped the shooter from continuing to fire on innocent, unarmed individuals. He saved countless lives with his actions but made the ultimate sacrifice and ended up paying the ultimate price.

I don't believe any of us would engage an active shooter with the intent to die as a result but not engaging guarantees additional victims that wouldn't have the same fighting chance that an armed citizen might have.

The sad fact is that vest or no vest, you will probably only get one or two shots at the assailant before they turn their attention to you and only you. As has been stated repeatedly by many in this thread, bullet placement is the only solution. Body armor doesn't usually cover the entire body (hips, thighs, head, etc.) so well placed shots that could immobilize the perp (taken from adequate cover) might reduce the collateral damage until reinforcements arrive.

Assuming you can control you adrenaline, fight or flight instincts and remember your fundamentals all while bullets are flying...

 

[Doc Maker]

I've had many people come through the Active Shooter class we teach with simunitions. From LE to noobs, everyone makes a mistake the first time one of the role players shoots back. Fine motor skills and decision making are out the window, leaving only your training to rely on. The training establishes the muscle memory to overcome a lot of the points made in earlier posts regarding round count and hit/miss ratios. Most prosecutors have no argument against a standard caliber like 9mm (or whatever is comfortable) with ball ammo or JHP. Use the same ammo as the police and military and you'll have no questions about your choice.

If you are involved in a shooting, you will be looked at as a whole package. If you have more than one extra magazine or a compliment of various weapons, expect questions. Be aware of the "Were you looking for trouble?" questions when you CC in your daily routine.

Don't be the aggressor. Initiate the OODA Loop. Find cover, assess the situation, decide and act. Follow through on your decision to act. If the situation dictates that you find cover and call 911, don't change your mind if the circumstances haven't changed. For example, several heavily armed men enter a hotel (Mumbai attack) and you have a pistol. Take cover and wait for your opportunity to escape. Do NOT second guess yourself and decide to go out there and pull a John McClane. On the other hand, if you decide to engage then follow through after the action. Secure the AC's weapons and prepare for the arrival of LE by preparing to surrender yourself to them. Drop your weapon and comply with all commands. Let the police sort it out and answer their questions about what happened. Just the facts, no feelings or assumptions. When you are interviewed by the prosecutor later, have a lawyer with you.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the blood toxicology test that may happen if you appear to be under the influence. Are you taking any prescriptions that have driving warnings? Those can apply to guns too.

Is your house clean and in order? If you're in a shooting, the judge will issue a search warrant and they WILL look at everything. Any "manifestos" lying around? What does your hard drive look like? They will take the computer, or at least a copy of the HD. Throw away that old copy of the "Anarchists Cookbook" that you got when you were 13 and thought blowing stuff up would be consequence free.

The legal considerations, in WA State at least, are pretty simple.
1) Don't carry a modified gun (grips & sights are OK) or questionable ammo. Remember that the prosecutors job is to ask questions like: "Why do you have 2 1/2 lb. trigger?" "Why do you feel it's necessary to carry Black Talon bullets?"
2) Know why you're shooting! Situational awareness under stress only comes with training. In every class, we have at least one student shoot a non-threat role player.

If you don't know the law and when you can & cannot shoot, you risk prosecution when you carry and end up in an engagement. When it comes to someone else's life, are you willing to rely on a guess? How about your life?

 

[revjen45]

Without having faced that situation it is very difficult to answer. Maybe exit the door, then engage with the door jamb as support and some minimal degree of cover.
My ECG is a 10-shot Tuppwerware 9mm with hi-viz sights.
I recall an incident here in WA State in which a CCW chose to intervene in an active shooter situation . He made the mistake of a verbal challenge before getting down to business and ended up paralyzed. If you can shoot before the Orc is aware of your presence shut up and shoot or get out of Dodge.

Reply to Post #27:
I tried this minus the screaming in a training scenario. The dismal results convinced me that it's not a viable course of action, for me anyway. YMMV.

 

[bmtm09]

Xdm-45-13rd mag, 2 -13 round backup mags. {winter} Beretta 92fs 15rd mag, 2-15rd backup mags {summer} Note the similarities... Ammo ammo ammo ammo I dont want my family shot by some mall shooter for lack of shooting back. Say you shoot at the masked man. miss. You now have his full attention! If he is intent on not shooting himself and waiting on his big shootout with s.w.a.t. and you have just made him really mad and totally focused on you. A running gun fight with a single mag just doesnt add up to you going home and sleeping in your bed. Tunnel vision, hearing nothig but your heartbeat and muffled gunfire in your ears, panic, 10000 thoughts running through your mind. All of these things can and will happen. In a live fire situation against an unsub with your death on his agenda, ammo and training are your best friends. You may be a crack shot against paper but when the paper shoots back .....