What gun/caliber to oppose an active shooter?

[theficklefinger]

In every active shooter scenario I can think of the populace ran, including tough guy CCW holders. Either they are too scared to take on an active shooter or worry so much about the legal consequences of even a good shoot, they are rendered ineffective.

Simply put, caliber, capacity, brand is moot...people these doesn't don't fight. They have become fat, self medicating, excuse factories, doing what they can to escape the reality of their predicament.

 

[rick benjamin]

What gun/caliber to oppose an active shooter?

Short answer: the one you have.
What do you have?

Trained with the 1911 for four years (THANK YOU COMMANDANT WILSON, for the
1000 rounds of match grade ammo per month to train and compete with!)
Wish I could have kept that gov issued darling.
30+ years later I am still real confident with a colt 1911 .45.

I'm in the process of getting a CCW permit.
As much as I would love to carry the colt, it's just too big for me to carry and remain un-remarkable.

I bought a Glock 27 40SW, then got spooked with the thought of a double stacked grip.
Thinking smaller, bought a Taurus 709ss 9mm.
This weekend I fired them both for handling and accuracy.
(Taurus makes a dandy 709 but it doesn't fit me)
I'm carrying the Baby Glock 40.
Out of the box, 25 feet, on sandbags, no site adjustment, 6 o'clock site picture, tiny group.
Natural point of aim is a little left, will fix that.
Trigger is crisp and responsive.
Return to target site picture is instinctive and managable.
25 feet, 2 handed weaver stance, 5 rounds, rapid fire, a kill group (center of nose).

I will carry what I can shoot and hit well with it.
I will enroll in advanced combat pistol classes, and practice.
I will have proven confidence in the team (me and my gun).
Fear and adrenilin rush are normal body responses to danger, focus on the mission.
We will reduce the active shooter.

What gun/caliber to oppose an active shooter?
Short answer: the one you know.
Be brave and find what you are good with.
Spend the $ till you know what's what.
If you handle a .25 better than 9mm, get good with .25
Good luck
Regards
Rick

 

[Riot]

I've had many people come through the Active Shooter class we teach with simunitions. From LE to noobs, everyone makes a mistake the first time one of the role players shoots back. Fine motor skills and decision making are out the window, leaving only your training to rely on. The training establishes the muscle memory to overcome a lot of the points made in earlier posts regarding round count and hit/miss ratios. Most prosecutors have no argument against a standard caliber like 9mm (or whatever is comfortable) with ball ammo or JHP. Use the same ammo as the police and military and you'll have no questions about your choice.

Some of the most common mistakes people make during Force on Force incidents is that they shoot at the threat's weapon (since that is the area of focus) instead of the threat itself (the attacker using the weapon). This takes time and practice that only intense training can overcome.

If you are involved in a shooting, you will be looked at as a whole package. If you have more than one extra magazine or a compliment of various weapons, expect questions. Be aware of the "Were you looking for trouble?" questions when you CC in your daily routine.

I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six...every bullet you carry is a chance to make right of a bad situation. Although nobody can argue that shot placement is key, if you just dumped all seven rounds in your mag from your 1911 into center mass (not knowing that you just pissed off the active shooter wearing body armor) then that second mag could just save your life and the life of those around you.

Don't be the aggressor. Initiate the OODA Loop. Find cover, assess the situation, decide and act. Follow through on your decision to act. If the situation dictates that you find cover and call 911, don't change your mind if the circumstances haven't changed. For example, several heavily armed men enter a hotel (Mumbai attack) and you have a pistol. Take cover and wait for your opportunity to escape. Do NOT second guess yourself and decide to go out there and pull a John McClane. On the other hand, if you decide to engage then follow through after the action. Secure the AC's weapons and prepare for the arrival of LE by preparing to surrender yourself to them. Drop your weapon and comply with all commands. Let the police sort it out and answer their questions about what happened. Just the facts, no feelings or assumptions. When you are interviewed by the prosecutor later, have a lawyer with you.

I agreed with everything except the bold. I would advise to just shut up and ask for a lawyer. There are legal terms that can get you in a world of trouble from an "excited utterance" that can be used against you later in court even though you haven't been Mirandized yet. It is an exception to the Hearsay Rule. Let the evidence do the talking, not you. If anything I would suggest always dialing 9-1-1 (since it is being recorded). When the police show up, make sure you tell them you were the one who called...then I would exercise my 5th Amendment rights and wait for a lawyer. Lastly, make sure you actually have a lawyer that knows how to defend against good shootings! Don't just take a court appointed lawyer that couldn't tell you what the difference is between a clip and a magazine.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the blood toxicology test that may happen if you appear to be under the influence. Are you taking any prescriptions that have driving warnings? Those can apply to guns too.

Great advice...stay sober when carrying. Period.

Is your house clean and in order? If you're in a shooting, the judge will issue a search warrant and they WILL look at everything. Any "manifestos" lying around? What does your hard drive look like? They will take the computer, or at least a copy of the HD. Throw away that old copy of the "Anarchists Cookbook" that you got when you were 13 and thought blowing stuff up would be consequence free.

Good advice. Also remember that warrants are usually area specific (car, gun safe, etc.). Don't forfiet any property that is legal to own and not on the warrant (i.e. all your long guns when warrant specifies a pistol).

The legal considerations, in WA State at least, are pretty simple.
1) Don't carry a modified gun (grips & sights are OK) or questionable ammo. Remember that the prosecutors job is to ask questions like: "Why do you have 2 1/2 lb. trigger?" "Why do you feel it's necessary to carry Black Talon bullets?"

Going to stop you there...a custom trigger job or JHP rounds are easily explained, may help your accuracy and would be a hard sell to a jury. But custom "Punisher" grips or a laser etch job of "I don't give warning shots" might get you in hot water later on.

2) Know why you're shooting! Situational awareness under stress only comes with training. In every class, we have at least one student shoot a non-threat role player.


If you don't know the law and when you can & cannot shoot, you risk prosecution when you carry and end up in an engagement. When it comes to someone else's life, are you willing to rely on a guess? How about your life?

Rest is solid info...

 

[Doc Maker]

Great Points Riot. The only thing I would disagree with is totally clamming up to the police. That will guarantee that you're arrested. At least restate what you said on the 911 call. You can be cooperative and still not self-incriminate. Yes, a trigger job and ammo can be explained, my point was don't invite those extra questions.

I was on TV last night doing an AS demonstration.
?Active Shooter? Training: What would you do if gunman showed up at your job? | Washington's Most Wanted

 

[Stomper]

Wow... Another face suited for radio! JUST KIDDING!


Nice work.

 

[Riot]

Great Points Riot. The only thing I would disagree with is totally clamming up to the police. That will guarantee that you're arrested. At least restate what you said on the 911 call. You can be cooperative and still not self-incriminate. Yes, a trigger job and ammo can be explained, my point was don't invite those extra questions.

I was on TV last night doing an AS demonstration.
?Active Shooter? Training: What would you do if gunman showed up at your job? | Washington's Most Wanted

FYI, the reason why I advocate "clamming up to the police" is because you might say something you didn't intend.

Adrenaline + Stress = Mistakes

I don't know about you, but I would rather be hauled off to the police station in cuffs and treated like a criminal for a day than say something I didn't mean and be treated like a criminal for years. I would seriously at least wait until all that adrenaline dumped out of your system before saying anything other than-

"I called 9-1-1. I'm not the bad guy."

These are just my $0.02...obviously the students can heed it or ignore it. On one side of the coin you will probably be treated like a subject for a bit then released. On the other side of the coin you might be the next poster child for gun control and have to pay a lot for civil fees.

Here at the prison, most of the officers get into more trouble for what they say than what they actually do. Intent is hard to prove without recorded quotes...Hudson v McMillian was a huge deciding factor for the "watch what you say" being taught (I'm a DT instructor for WA DOC). Obviously prison stuff doesn't necessarily apply to the civilian stuff, but I would just still suggest watching what you say, especially since every person is a walking amature videographer now.

 

[Doc Maker]

FYI, the reason why I advocate "clamming up to the police" is because you might say something you didn't intend.

Adrenaline + Stress = Mistakes

I don't know about you, but I would rather be hauled off to the police station in cuffs and treated like a criminal for a day than say something I didn't mean and be treated like a criminal for years. I would seriously at least wait until all that adrenaline dumped out of your system before saying anything other than-

"I called 9-1-1. I'm not the bad guy."

These are just my $0.02...obviously the students can heed it or ignore it. On one side of the coin you will probably be treated like a subject for a bit then released. On the other side of the coin you might be the next poster child for gun control and have to pay a lot for civil fees.

Here at the prison, most of the officers get into more trouble for what they say than what they actually do. Intent is hard to prove without recorded quotes...Hudson v McMillian was a huge deciding factor for the "watch what you say" being taught (I'm a DT instructor for WA DOC). Obviously prison stuff doesn't necessarily apply to the civilian stuff, but I would just still suggest watching what you say, especially since every person is a walking amature videographer now.

I do agree in principle. Talking too much gets many people in trouble. I only advocate sticking to the facts (i.e. time & actions) NOT motivations. "I called 911 and I fired when he came at [blank]."

Just be polite and cooperative. And have your lawyers number in your phone.

 

[coop44]

ANYTHING you say can be taken out of context and used against you. Law enforcement has already made up their minds, they have decided that someone needs to go to jail. The BS "if you haven't done anything illegal why do you need a lawyer?" is a tactic, remember they can say anything, you are being interrogated. "I need a lawyer to protect myself from YOU" is the appropriate answer.

Remember, innocent or not, most people in jail put themselves there, because they couldn't keep their mouths shut.

 

[Doc Maker]

All of the above assumes that one has the presence of mind to remember all of this good advice, considering the adrenalin.

 

[2506]

I've mentioned that shoot before.. only back of the head or neck shots might have stopped the shooter. I would assume any perp has a vest. He was eventually chased down by cops in squad cars and finally taken down on the open HWY. The final chase is on video and probably could be found with a google search

Easy...

David Arroyo Police Shootout in Tyler Texas - YouTube

IMO the only way for a citizen to stop him was with a well aimed rifle shot or 3 from a distance. This was one of the shoots that caused me to start packing a Mini 14 in my trunk

No doubt. I certainly don't want to be the guy who brought a handgun to a rifle fight. I think it was Clint Smith who said "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to your rifle," or words to that effect.

 

[PolishedBrass]

If I am to understand the meaning of "Active Shooter" to mean some individual set on destruction of life who is well armed and shooting citizens in a public place with perhaps cover, vest and a rifle and or handgun?

If that is the case then accuracy at a distance is critical.
Without that ability in a handgun it is best to stand down and wait especially if the "Active Shooter" has a rifle.

I can do a grapefruit 8/10 @ 70 yards with a .40cal long slide with special sights that can be regular carry.
The .40 cal bullets I use are +P 135grain so they shoot very flat. I can't do 100 well just because of movement and sighting.

8/10 in a relaxed situation isn't good enough in my estimation however in a public place.

I suggest you upgrade your sights on your carry and practice at 50 yards. A .45 can do 50 yards nicely.


In my estimation the scenario is mute since to really feel confident you would have to be shooting a Grapefruit sized group 99% @ 50 yards. (Doable Though.)

With the recent active shooter situations that have occurred a raging debate has reignited between my neighbor and me.

I carry an H&K USP45C daily and he carries a government issued Sig in 9mm (he works for one of those 3-letter federal agencies). We have debated several times the pros and cons of more bullets (9mm) versus (alleged) greater one-shot-stop percentages (.45).

Without getting into religious wars about caliber, terminal ballistics, temporary and permanent wound cavity characteristics, etc., I’m curious what the forum members think about how much gun and how many bullets they would want/need in an active shooter situation if they were carrying concealed. It’s not easy to conceal an AR or shotgun so let’s assume long guns are not an option.

The old, dated FBI stats on “average gunfights” (take place at less than 20’, 8 or less rounds expended, less than 10 seconds in total duration, etc.) don’t apply in an active shooter situation so this becomes somewhat new ground for discussion on what would be the most effective in this specific situation.

I carry a .45 because I know what I can hit under duress and when I do hit it, it will probably fall down with very few rounds (or the blunt force trauma when wearing a vest will disorient the active shooter long enough for me to permanently end the situation). That's my logic at least.

I’m interested to hear any other opinions and reasoning you may consider specifically in the active shooter scenario.

And, yes, I know this is a purely academic exercise since all situations are different. I’m just interested in the various approaches that people may use to come to their conclusion on what makes them comfortable.

 

[Mark W.]

After due consideration I think the best choice would be a 8 ga double barrel with about 24" barrels and a cyl bore choke. a semi auto trigger like the CZ canvasback O/u has where you just pull the trigger twice and it goes from one barrel to the next. loaded with .33cal 00 buckshout

 

[tacticalgunner]

Simple answer which may have been brought up, i did not read all 5 pages.
1) Any caliber.
2) Train with said caliber
3) Train yourself to shoot, I would say 89 percent of the people who carry would not pull the trigger. Taking the shot is not as easy as one may think, or brag about. I am being libreal about the amout that would shoot.
4) Know your surrounding and if you miss, could you find cover to continue to fight, or do you need to retreat, where too?

A lot to think about when the SHTF. Any caliber hurts, and will stop or temporarly stop someone. If you do shoot, you assess, then shoot again if the person is still coming

 

[Riot]

3) Train yourself to shoot, I would say 89 percent of the people who carry would not pull the trigger. Taking the shot is not as easy as one may think, or brag about. I am being libreal about the amout that would shoot.

This is another great point. I would estimate that it's more about at *75%, but that's still astounding when you think about it (that 3/4ths of the gun owners wouldn't/couldn't actually shoot someone in a deadly threat situation).

*Some of this is just because of politics and trying to obey policies and abstract, unenforceable laws...what I mean by that is that because of the "no weapons" sign on the outside of the fairgrounds/mall/movie theater, you decided to lock up your pistol in your car as to "not get into trouble". Then (as Aurora, Colorado found out) later realize that active shooters don't obey these same signs, city ordinances and policies. Mind you I'm not advocating breaking any laws, just realize that pre-emption laws are there for a reason and will protect you in court, even if a city ordinance is in place (like in Aurora, Colorado).

*Some of this is also due to training. Many "gun guys" go out shooting with their favorite gun/holster combo (i.e. a raced-out 1911 in an OWB speed holster) but throw on a 5-shot revolver in an ankle holster as their daily carry piece. I remember reading a story of a cop that was recently promoted to detective. He got into a deadly threat situation and reached for his gun where he normally had it, never practicing with the new shoulder-holster rig he currently was carrying and died as a result. In stress, you will do what you normally do in training.

*Rest, I agree, is mental. Some fear the consequences of firing a bullet to the point of hesitation or never firing- either because they do not trust their own abilities to hit their intended target instead of an innocent bystandard or they just fear media/court/community/police repricussions of shooting someone.

 

[RBid]

It is an almost universally ignored point that the goal does not change when discussion changes from "self defense shoot" to "active shooter event". Simply put, the goal is still to end the threat. In the case of an active shooter scenario, this may be a matter of creating time for evacuation.

Whether the AS has body armor or any type of weapon is less relevant than most people realize, unless he is also chemically altered. Barring the use of drugs or other physiological calming agents, instinct will take over when an untrained combatant is attacked. When fired upon, there will be a reaction.

To test this: put on an umpire's mask and protective gear. Have somebody throw a baseball at your face. Even knowing that it can't hurt you, you WILL try to defend yourself by moving. Instinct will override the part of your brain that understands on an academic level that you will not be hurt by the ball. A physical reaction will occur.

The point is that it may not matter at all what your weapon is. If you fire, the shooter will react. Their course of action will change. There is likely to be an associated freeze or pause, as their brain processes an unexpected action against them.