To shoot or not to shoot ... moving backwards

[Keys1971]

I would hazard a guess that Mr. Vickers said that because we either shoot good or move good. Very few people (Hollywood actors excluded of course) shoot well while moving. Not saying I dont practice it myself, but usually the only thing moving backwards does for you is create distance, and distance is not always your friend. Moving backwards does not change the angle of attack or take you out of your threats sights. Unless there is cover directly behind you, moving at a latteral angle is usually the better choice. Other views?

 

[ORSECTRAIN]

Tactics is a well worked endevor and limiting your training to one line of thinking is counter productive.

Moving backwards is whe WORST way to move, but knowing that and dealing with the reality of the situation it may be the ONLY option.

In training we train movement off the line of attack AFTER the shot is taken, and or PRIOR to shooting (move to cover).

If the SITUATION dictates a need to MOVE BACK then that is somthing you should learn how to do as safely as posible, talk to your trainer/instructor.

If you are doing a drill in class and you do not know the "why" ask the trainer/instructor, if they did not explain it prior to the drill.

Typicly the drills, and skills we shoot on the range the been explained, and dry practiced several times prior to the range.

I am sure the majority of the folks here have had advanced firearms training from a certified instructor (beyond the 3-4 hour CHL class)
so there was dry practice, gun handling, and movement drills in that training. I would encourage everyone to keep training, and expand your training whenever posible.

Continue to train, and please remember...

"Be Safe Out There!"

Respectfully,

ORSECTRAIN
"Be Safe Out There!"

 

[Kevatc]

I would hazard a guess that Mr. Vickers said that because we either shoot good or move good. Very few people (Hollywood actors excluded of course) shoot well while moving. Not saying I dont practice it myself, but usually the only thing moving backwards does for you is create distance, and distance is not always your friend. Moving backwards does not change the angle of attack or take you out of your threats sights. Unless there is cover directly behind you, moving at a latteral angle is usually the better choice. Other views?

I agree but I can think of scenarios where shooting and moving away at the same time might be the best or perhaps only choice ... hallways and store aisles come to mind. I'm thinking if there is a threat that is shooting at me I'd rather not play chicken and advance towards the threat hoping I get lucky first. In this case I am thinking distance is my friend.

 

[theficklefinger]

Thread ender -

What do executive protection people do? Cover the principal, lay down fire while moving to a protected position, then exiting the area.

Consider this when your with your wife, the bad guys at Walmart start opening up with Aks, and there you are pushing your stroller forward laying down fire with your 38 special because that is what some idiot at the firearms academy taught you to do.

 

[Keys1971]

I agree but I can think of scenarios where shooting and moving away at the same time might be the best or perhaps only choice ... hallways and store aisles come to mind. I'm thinking if there is a threat that is shooting at me I'd rather not play chicken and advance towards the threat hoping I get lucky first. In this case I am thinking distance is my friend.

Be carefull with the distance is my friend thinking. Usually distance is your friend if and only if you are using a superior weapons system, i.e. long arm versus handgun. Or you are the better trained individual.

 

[Kevatc]

Be carefull with the distance is my friend thinking. Usually distance is your friend if and only if you are using a superior weapons system, i.e. long arm versus handgun. Or you are the better trained individual.

Points taken. Just the same, my gun or the bad guys gun system shouldn't matter. I am not a soldier so advancing towards a threat by and large isn't going to be my primary concern. I might advance if that allows me to get better C & C but I am just guessing that most of the time getting away from a threat is going to be a good thing. If you can illustrate a good scenario why a private citizen might need to advance I am all ears. I am also interested in your thoughts about why it's not a good idea to move backwards and shoot.

Tactics aside I can shoot more accurately moving backwards than I can forwards.

 

[SheepDog223]

Try your ideas out over at threat dynamics. It might open up some glitches in your theories. It did mine.

 

[Keys1971]

Hello Kevatc. Sorry it took so long to get back to you, computer issues. In my humble opinion it does matter what weapon your threat is using. If your threat is using an AR/AK/FAL etc., and your response is to move backwards and shoot, you are playing into your threats strengths. I have a very good scenario why this "might" not be a good idea. You are out with your family, and the worst happens, active shooter. What is going to happen to your family while you are slide stepping to the rear to gain distance. I know I have spoken with my family what to do in such a situation but, will they do it? I dont know. I would gladly advance on a threat if it took their focus off my family.

You can condition your body to do almost anything. However with that being said, as infants we were conditioned to walk forward. For the vast majority of our life we walk forward. It doesn't matter if you believe in evolution or creation, we as a species have been moving forwards for thousands of years. We are hard wired so to speak. Now throw in the most stressful situation you can imagine. You are in the middle of a chemical induced adrenaline dump, you are experiencing vaso constriction, tunnel vision, loss of fine motor skills, you may have even voided your bowels. And now you want to go against thousands of years biology and move backwards at the same time you have a controlled explosion and flame mere inches from your face (gun going off)? Now Im not saying I dont practice this myself, but it is not my preferred method of movement. Just my .02 cents.

I would hazzard a guess that the reason you shoot better moving backwards is the same reason many shooters shoot better with their support hand. They are concentrating more on their sights and trigger press. Train safe, Keys

 

[Kevatc]

I would hazzard a guess that the reason you shoot better moving backwards is the same reason many shooters shoot better with their support hand. They are concentrating more on their sights and trigger press. Train safe, Keys

To be honest, I have to concentrate on everything a lot more when trying to move forward. Not that I don't have to concentrate moving backwards and shooting but it is easier.

 

[Kevatc]

I've been looking for the video where Vickers talks about not shooting while moving backwards. I cam across this: <broken link removed> and specifically this quote:

4) Practice shooting on the move in all directions; Of course moving straight toward an opponent or straight back is not ideal but may not be avoided. The fact of the matter is you need to be able to shoot on the move in any direction as despite what some instructors teach when and where you have to engage a threat cannot be accurately predicted in the real world unlike in an IPSC 3 gun match. Remember the hostile action of the threat is what dictates your actions not the beep from a shot timer.

 

[rangerstx4]

Thread ender -

What do executive protection people do? Cover the principal, lay down fire while moving to a protected position, then exiting the area.

Consider this when your with your wife, the bad guys at Walmart start opening up with Aks, and there you are pushing your stroller forward laying down fire with your 38 special because that is what some idiot at the firearms academy taught you to do.

I agree. If you just have your standard carry handgun on you and maybe an extra mag, shoot the threat and move. Active shooters and other BG have planned for what they are doing and most of the time will have assault rifles, shotguns, or high capacity handguns.

I do a lot of firearms instruction and always cover shooting while moving backwards. If you review LE roadside shootings, as soon as rounds start flying the cops starts moving. Whether he was trained for it or not. Most of the times it a backpedal towards cover while laying down fire. Its a natural reaction and should be trained along with lateral or forward movements.

Also in response to the accuracy comment about moving backwards. I believe that your more acurate going backwards because your feet naturally provide a smooth, rolling walk. (not some crazy Michael Jackson moon walking). Just walking normal backwards provides a steadier platform than moving forwards.

 

[bendskier]

Don't know where the original comment came from. I just took Larry Vicker's two day course over here in Central Oregon and shooting while moving backward was absolutely a part of the course. It was about a two hour exercise on Day 2; shooting while backing up, box drill. We even did a couple team drills where it was incorporated.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

Maybe because if you are shooting and moving backwards at the sametime if you trip up moving backwards you might end up sending a shot wild forward or even to the side if you are trying to throw out an arm from falling down backwards or something.

Kinda like don't shoot if you don't know for certain your standing foundation is not solid - as you would not moving backwards.

Seems common sense almost.

Sounds like a training/common sense issue. You lift your heel if you are on the move backwards - you won't trip, your heel will go above whatever you made contact with. You are on the balls of your feel longer (compared to advancing) as well when moving backwards. Translated, your sight picture is more steady moving backwards than forwards.

 

[Kevatc]

In my firearm courses we were taught how to move and shoot in all directions including retreating from the target. The other day I saw a show (TV/youtube????) where Larry Vickers mentioned something to the effect of "we never move backwards to shoot." Why do you think he said that? Could it be from his experiences as a real meal deal shooter in a stack or is it just a difference in philosophy?

Don't know where the original comment came from. I just took Larry Vicker's two day course over here in Central Oregon and shooting while moving backward was absolutely a part of the course. It was about a two hour exercise on Day 2; shooting while backing up, box drill. We even did a couple team drills where it was incorporated.

Bendskier: obviously I will have to defer to your actual Vicker's experience. I remember the quote but I must be quoting it out of context. I have looked high and low for the video but no luck. Lots of really good thoughts in this thread. Thanks everyone.

 

[ArBrnSnpr]

Observation, orientation, decision, action - that will determine what direction you move in any given situation. Saying not to shoot moving backward is like saying not to shoot while taking a (left) knee...

When the time is right, take the best shot you can. Hopefully if you've been training right, you've trained for something like what you're experiencing, or something close because you should be training for every concievable situation/senario.

Getting wrapped around the axle about what direction you should move while in the kill zone is silly because it will cause you to think and train in an unrealistic, close-minded way - then next thing you know you're in a gun fight in a hallway, you try to move gracefully at a 45* rear-ward angle to your threat and bounce into a wall like a gigantic d-bag, and then you realize it's the first time you've ever fired a gun while moving backwards, and you're sitting there thinking to yourself "this isn't in rules!?!?" and just then you get to learn what getting shot feels like!

Myself, I'll train to shoot backwards, forwards, laterally, up hill, down hill, kneeling, sitting, from a car, prone, off my back, around a barrier or doing cart wheels if it means I go home at the end of the day

 

[Kevatc]

Observation, orientation, decision, action - that will determine what direction you move in any given situation. Saying not to shoot moving backward is like saying not to shoot while taking a (left) knee...

When the time is right, take the best shot you can. Hopefully if you've been training right, you've trained for something like what you're experiencing, or something close because you should be training for every concievable situation/senario.

Getting wrapped around the axle about what direction you should move while in the kill zone is silly because it will cause you to think and train in an unrealistic, close-minded way - then next thing you know you're in a gun fight in a hallway, you try to move gracefully at a 45* rear-ward angle to your threat and bounce into a wall like a gigantic d-bag, and then you realize it's the first time you've ever fired a gun while moving backwards, and you're sitting there thinking to yourself "this isn't in rules!?!?" and just then you get to learn what getting shot feels like!

Myself, I'll train to shoot backwards, forwards, laterally, up hill, down hill, kneeling, sitting, from a car, prone, off my back, around a barrier or doing cart wheels if it means I go home at the end of the day

Excellent post. Thanks.

 

[JonnyS]

I agree with many of the posters that training to shoot while moving in any direction is great.

That said, it would have to depend on the situation for me to decide what to do. If I'm moving backwards, it usually means I'm in some sort of 'retreat'. Either retreating from the battle itself or just retreating to cover or some other more advantageous position.

Then it becomes: shooting while moving backwards at a slower, more careful pace (you don't want to trip and fall) VS laying down some sort of suppressive fire, then turning tail and running like hell.

 

[Steve Sloan]

Never mind