To shoot or not to shoot ... moving backwards

[Kevatc]

In my firearm courses we were taught how to move and shoot in all directions including retreating from the target. The other day I saw a show (TV/youtube????) where Larry Vickers mentioned something to the effect of "we never move backwards to shoot." Why do you think he said that? Could it be from his experiences as a real meal deal shooter in a stack or is it just a difference in philosophy?

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[duran21]

I didn't see the show... however... from military training... i can tell you that we don't retreat... i would move back to find cover to shoot from but you don't retreat from the threat. Also, if your in a door way, DONT STOP... you will get shot every time if you dont keep moving!

 

[supergenius]

Whenever I go outdoors to a "pit" and lack of people provides, I LIKE to practice shooting on a move, slicing the pie left right forward backwards etc.

No finger on trigger when not firing means no bang bang on accident

 

[Kevatc]

I didn't see the show... however... from military training... i can tell you that we don't retreat... i would move back to find cover to shoot from but you don't retreat from the threat. Also, if your in a door way, DONT STOP... you will get shot every time if you dont keep moving!

Makes sense. I would think that creating distance between you and the threat in a civilian scenario would be a good thing.

 

[doubletap007]

Maybe because if you are shooting and moving backwards at the sametime if you trip up moving backwards you might end up sending a shot wild forward or even to the side if you are trying to throw out an arm from falling down backwards or something.

Kinda like don't shoot if you don't know for certain your standing foundation is not solid - as you would not moving backwards.


Seems common sense almost.

this is the right idea about moving backwards,it's not safe and can cause a wild shot to hit someone,the reason for moving forward is a mental commitment and mind set as well as intimidation for a perp,if you are commited to shoot you close the gap and go into cop mode.
if there is a chance you dont have to take a life such as a simple robbery you slowly back up sliding your feet as to not trip and move to a safe position and let the perp go.

 

[bruzer]

I am no expert but in Practical Pistol Training we learn how to shoot moving backwards two ways. Straight back and then also sweep each leg back checking for obstructions as you move backwards. We are shooting as we move so finger is on trigger and sights are on target. Now if the threat is stopped but your still moving then finger off trigger. If by chance another target shows up then sights on target and finger back on trigger and shots will be fired on the move. But like I said, I am no expert.
Mike

I will say this, If you are not training then none of this matters. A simple mag change is almost impossible if you don't train. But then again, I am no expert.

 

[duran21]

Work and fight with in your training... if you cant handle moving backward then just worry about side to side and forward... if you can't handle shooting while walking backward and trip and fall, 1. you will put a round in the air that will land some where random and 2. falling on the ground will give the bad guy shooting at you or charging with a knife the advantage and you will end up hurt or died.

Best thing to do is train, train, train. practice moving back (with no ammo) pulling the trigger. any time you walk in to an area try to remember where objects are on the ground and move slow... slow is smooth, smooth is fast. and remember, you move to find cover, dont move back to no cover when there is cover to the right!

thats my 2 cents.

 

[Riot]

Guys, don't think about it in turns of retreating in so much as moving to a better advantage. You should practice moving in all directions. What if your target is below you in elevation? Moving backwards might put you in better advantage and create a smaller target for yourself.

Also, going upstairs you may have to walk backwards so that your back isn't to possible threats.


Don't just dismiss tactics because you cannot foresee their immediate benefits, and remember- heel to toe and keep your knees bent!

*edit*

Actually when walking backwards it's "toe-to-heel" so, my bad.

 

[Kevatc]

Guys, don't think about it in turns of retreating in so much as moving to a better advantage. You should practice moving in all directions. What if your target is below you in elevation? Moving backwards might put you in better advantage and create a smaller target for yourself.

Also, going upstairs you may have to walk backwards so that your back isn't to possible threats.


Don't just dismiss tactics because you cannot foresee their immediate benefits, and remember- heel to toe and keep your knees bent!

*edit*

Actually when walking backwards it's "toe-to-heel" so, my bad.

Excellent points and the basis for why I asked about opinions on Vickers statement in the OP. I'm assuming his statemet might have been based off his military training but wasn't for sure.

 

[theficklefinger]

Many of these gun guys teach a 'no think' approach to shooting...'just keep moving forward and lay down fire'....it's based on the concept that your dealing with morons, that under stress they freeze like rabbits...so they give them standard robotic training concepts to default to when they are past it.

Sound like Vickers is an idiot. I can just see his robotic minions moving forward against heavier more accurate fire when it might be prudent to find cover, etc.

He's probably teaching an OK Corral gun battle mindset...which is another problem with gun training these days....that all gun fights are at the ATM machine or a crack deal gone bad.

Feel free to advance on that active shooter with an Ak47 at Walmart. I'll be finding cover and taking aimed shots.

 

[Riot]

Many of these gun guys teach a 'no think' approach to shooting...'just keep moving forward and lay down fire'....it's based on the concept that your dealing with morons, that under stress they freeze like rabbits...so they give them standard robotic training concepts to default to when they are past it.

Uh...I wouldn't say "morons" in so much as people not used to that much amount of stress all at once. You will default to training under stress and Vickers is just trying to instill an automative response of meeting a violent threat with deadly force.

Surprise, speed and violence of action will win fights. Vickers is just trying to instill this mindset within a 30-min time block about firearms by stating to never move backwards.

Sound like Vickers is an idiot. I can just see his robotic minions moving forward against heavier more accurate fire when it might be prudent to find cover, etc.

Meh, it's more of the mindset that "what works for most should work for all" that I've encountered. It's a one-sided coin mindset that tries to overly simplify a complex problem. There are no cut and dry gun fights...the only thing cut and dry about a gun fight is that the one left breathing is the winner. Everything else is semantics. This quote says it best-

"In ten years, nobody will remember the details of the caliber, stance or tactics. They will only remember who lived."

He's probably teaching an OK Corral gun battle mindset...which is another problem with gun training these days....that all gun fights are at the ATM machine or a crack deal gone bad.

Feel free to advance on that active shooter with an Ak47 at Walmart. I'll be finding cover and taking aimed shots.

lol...alright I can agree with that one.

 

[tattoo]

If the threat is moving forward at me with a deadly weapon I sure the hell wont push forward while un holstering my weapon. He might win. What about cover? Is everything in front of you?
Dave

 

[1stIDFMP]

So you take your finger off the trigger any time you are moving?

I was trained that any time you move - finger off the trigger. Finger only on the trigger if you are going to shoot..........

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I teach JKD.. one of the arts we borrow from is Kali.. and one of the footwork patterns we train in from it is a pie pan pattern where you can move in any direction. This comes from ancient arts and is backed up with an infusion of Medieval and Renaissance Spanish sword fighting techniques. The ancients easily knew more about real combat than almost any living man today. Nothing should be off the table in combat, all that matters is to win/accomplish your mission and hopefully survive

 

[theficklefinger]

I teach JKD.. one of the arts we borrow from is Kali.. and one of the footwork patterns we train in from it is a pie pan pattern where you can move in any direction. This comes from ancient arts and is backed up with an infusion of Medieval and Renaissance Spanish sword fighting techniques. The ancients easily knew more about real combat than almost any living man today. Nothing should be off the table in combat, all that matters is to win/accomplish your mission and hopefully survive

I wonder how far we have drifted from reality since those times. Real life experience and that knowledge tends to trump theory any day of the week.

Imagining our MMA folks transported back to the Roman Coliseum with swords, I ponder just about much mat work they would be doing.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I wonder how far we have drifted from reality since those times. Real life experience and that knowledge tends to trump theory any day of the week.

Imagining our MMA folks transported back to the Roman Coliseum with swords, I ponder just about much mat work they would be doing.

MMAs is not JKD. Not that anyone really knows what is IS, but when was the last time you saw a MMA~ist training with a dagger, knife,, sword, club or staff?

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Sound like Vickers is an idiot. I can just see his robotic minions moving forward against heavier more accurate fire when it might be prudent to find cover, etc.

I wouldn't call him an idiot. He spent 20-some years in the military, most of it as a member of delta force (or combat applications group is what it's now called I think), and those guys typically are scary-good shots.

I'll see if i can find the show you mentioned but in all the reviews of the classes he teaches I've read they practice shooting on the move, forwards, backwards, and sideways.

 

[Stomper]

I can tell you that its a LOT harder to hit a target that is moving laterally left and/or right and shooting at you, than it is to hit a target that is moving in a straight line forwards and backwards.

 

[Kevatc]

I was trained that any time you move - finger off the trigger. Finger only on the trigger if you are going to shoot..........

Not to get into the "what if" game but if a BG is moving at me with no love in his demeanor backing up or moving away from a BG at an angle and shooting him seems appropriate. Can't shoot if the finger isn't on the trigger.

I wouldn't call him an idiot. He spent 20-some years in the military, most of it as a member of delta force (or combat applications group is what it's now called I think), and those guys typically are scary-good shots.

It was his experiences that caused me to wonder "huh???" and thus this thread.

I can tell you that its a LOT harder to hit a target that is moving laterally left and/or right and shooting at you, than it is to hit a target that is moving in a straight line forwards and backwards.

In my hangun courses we were limited to shooting and moving in the four basic directions. When moving laterally we might move 1-3 steps and stop. Working with an LEO friend he had me moving at an angle away from a threat and keep shooting until I felt I had stopped the threat.

 

[rolandson]

The very first part of my defensive handgun training was footwork. We started with moving backward and I still drill with that first; firing while retreating. Not necessarily in a straight line but away from the attack.