Stockpiling medicine?

[EZLivin]

OK, in a post SHTF scenario, I understand people using the big guns like cipro for wounds etc....but...

this is the old lab tech talking here, and just a warning that all antibiotics won't work on all bacteria. There is a reason we always do a sensitivity when we do a culture. Even within the same genus/specie of bug, different strains of the same bacteria will have differing levels of sensitivity to an antimicrobial....

Shotgun techniques with antibiotics, post SHTF, are wasteful, but about the only thing you can do if you fear sepsis...use what you got and hope that you are going to kill it, but the best advise is to be careful and proper wound care - wash the wound with betadine, wash your hands, clean dressings, wash your hands, wash your hands, wash your hands....

+1. Prevention is the key. Our pantry is well stocked with exam gloves, masks, soap, betadine, alcohol, and bleach.

 

[SPU]

What about hand sanitizer? Would this be as effective if you don't have clean or hot water? Also would it be safe to use on wounds?

Hand sanitizer is better than nothing but does not replace soap and water. Hot or warm water is no better than cold. It is the friction and antimicrobial soap that gets rid of stuff on your hands, the water just transports it off the hands. Hand sanitizer kills some germs, but not all, and doesn't do much for non-microbial contaminents.

Also: One-Eyed is absolutely correct. The reason my foot developed a raging infection in Mexico, was the very good, but very wrong antibiotic was chosen. I'm a nurse and took good care of it; sometimes sh*t happens no matter what you do.

 

[SPU]

+1. Prevention is the key. Our pantry is well stocked with exam gloves, masks, soap, betadine, alcohol, and bleach.

Be careful with Betadine. When I was in training too many years ago it was used to help debride wounds. It isn't used any more in most applications because newer studies show it kills germs AND newly healthy formed tissue. It is used commonly on intact skin surfaces prior to breaking the skin. In that case start at the spot and use circular motions to the outside, throw away the applicator and repeat. NEVER swab toward the place you are going to cut, because you may transport contaminants to the wound about to be made. If I had nothing else, I'd use Betadine on a wound, but it wouldn't be a happy choice.

No offense meant, but unless it is a total SHTF moment, some of you can do more harm than good. If that moment came I wouldn't have any qualms breaking into a pharmacy and taking what my family needs -- it would be fresh too. I know, there may not be a pharmacy left standing, but given how many are around even in tiny towns -- if it is that bad I probably won't be standing either.

Some may disagree, but outside basic band aids, tape, rubbing alcohol, ace bandages, AAA ointment, etc. (which everybody should have already IMHO) I'd leave it to professionals.

 

[gearhead]

Anyone had experience Zithromax? I know it is issued in the service. ( i hear it will kill just about anything bacterial early on) I can get it in Mexico or Canada, but it could be a placebo for all I know. looks like shelf life is up to 5 years depending on form and packaging. Suggestions?

 

[sadiesassy]

SPU

I have taken care of some pretty major cuts and wounds with a roll of tape and making butterfly bandages, and some gauze bangages. Actually had a doctor say on a 12 inch long deep slice that the butterfly's were great and he just left them in place vs trying to use sutures. Did give the guy a tetnus shot.

 

[Stomper]

How about duct tape (seriously) and iodine? Back in my sheet metal days I've gotten some pretty good lacerations to the point of seeing my "linkages" move back and forth when flexing digits (like a scene out of Terminator) and even got to see what the top of my knuckle joint looks like on my right index finger.

In each case I let it bleed for a about a minute (or so) to flush out any particulants, then applied appropriate pressure to stop the bleeding, used an alcohol wipe or iodine around the wound, slightly compressed again and wrapped that puppy with duct tape.... even going and sitting down when starting to feel "shocky".

I never went to a doctor/EMT for any of the myriad lacerations I've had and it left some cool looking scars, but these days I tend to wear gloves when doing "sharp work". There are so many great glove designs these days for a multitude of different tasks there's really no reason not to anymore.

 

[EZLivin]

Some may disagree, but outside basic band aids, tape, rubbing alcohol, ace bandages, AAA ointment, etc. (which everybody should have already IMHO) I'd leave it to professionals.

Yes. That is one of the advantages to being near a city vs out in the middle of the outback. In situations where there are supply disruptions cities become the focus of resupply efforts. That is where one would have the best chance of obtaining competent medical assistance.

 

[SPU]

Anyone had experience Zithromax? I know it is issued in the service. ( i hear it will kill just about anything bacterial early on) I can get it in Mexico or Canada, but it could be a placebo for all I know. looks like shelf life is up to 5 years depending on form and packaging. Suggestions?

Z packs are great, especially for upper respiratory infections especially. But if it is viral it won't do anything and you would contribute to the overuse of antibiotics -- and the development of more/worse superbugs. The treatment-resistent infections are going up in number by leaps and bounds, and killing a lot of people in the good old US of A.

 

[SPU]

SPU

I have taken care of some pretty major cuts and wounds with a roll of tape and making butterfly bandages, and some gauze bangages. Actually had a doctor say on a 12 inch long deep slice that the butterfly's were great and he just left them in place vs trying to use sutures. Did give the guy a tetnus shot.

Yeah, tet**** is nasty. You can take care of a lot of cuts this way. Just leaves a bigger scar and takes longer to heal. Smaller cuts they use super glue on too. But if a goober messes up he can have a nasty infection or other complications can happen -- then you have bigger expense and pain. Can't say I never did things like this on me and mine, but as a licensed professional I gotta say get a professional opinion on a deep cut.

 

[sadiesassy]

SPU
We were 3 days from help - But we did take him in once we could get to a physician because of the concern about the deepness of the cut

 

[gunslinger1911]

get a used PDR (physicians desk reference) from powell's or somewhere...they are the standard for drug uses, dosage calculations, contraindications, drug interactions etc...for example they will tell you EXACTLY what dosages of cephelexin to take for a course to cure staph...

 

[chowser2]

or you can go to your local
<-----pharmacist and ask them

 

[Thebastidge]

No offense meant, but unless it is a total SHTF moment, some of you can do more harm than good.

SPU: semi-good advice on the professional experts. Yes, I would avail myself of the services of the best-trained person available. But rather than discouraging people to do stuff for themselves, I would encourage them to seek more training. Not everybody has the time to learn to be a brain surgeon- true. But the basics of wound care are simple enough that you can easily do more good than harm. Then you can seek professional help when it is available. "Something" is not always better than "nothing" but often enough it is.

RE: hot/cold water. Neither has a more sanitizing effect in the temperature itself. But anybody who has ever had to wash in cold water a lot remembers that cold water is very unpleasant, and it doesn't remove the soap as well. Part of the point of soap, and the reason that regular soap works as well as the "antiseptic" sanitizer, is that the physical action of the soap bubbling helps to remove particles, as well as the soap helping to liquify oils and grease in the skin, making particles stick to the skin less. Hot water works better on the soap as well as helps with dissolving these oils (ever try washing dishes by hand in cold water? Good luck!). Dried blood also dissolves better in warm water. Heating the water to boiling ensures that the water is sterile, and then using it after it cools down to tolerable temps makes it much less uncomfortable.

Betadine is worth keeping around for more than just direct wound care. You can use it to sterilize drinking water, or in heavier concentrations for cleaning/sterilizing other things. I use it for my beer kegs. You could use it to swab down an area (a table, for example) for emergency medical care (you could also use bleach and it's cheaper, but some people tolerate idodine better than bleach.)

Again, I'm a huge fan of professional, modern western medicine- but it's not always available, and my one complaint about it would be that the definition of professional is a bit too rigid. We need many more tiers in the medical pyramid. Nurse Practitioners are a good example of a relatively recent "tier" of medical care. I just received my study materials for EMT-B. I don't plan to practice medicine on my own, but I do intend to volunteer and gain more experience for emergencies and the general decline of the medical industry as we slide into the next great depression under Obamacare.

The answer to ignorance is to seek more knowledge, not to stay ignorant and leave it to our betters.

 

[SPU]

SPU: semi-good advice on the professional experts. Yes, I would avail myself of the services of the best-trained person available. But rather than discouraging people to do stuff for themselves, I would encourage them to seek more training. Not everybody has the time to learn to be a brain surgeon- true. But the basics of wound care are simple enough that you can easily do more good than harm. Then you can seek professional help when it is available. "Something" is not always better than "nothing" but often enough it is.

RE: hot/cold water. Neither has a more sanitizing effect in the temperature itself. But anybody who has ever had to wash in cold water a lot remembers that cold water is very unpleasant, and it doesn't remove the soap as well. Part of the point of soap, and the reason that regular soap works as well as the "antiseptic" sanitizer, is that the physical action of the soap bubbling helps to remove particles, as well as the soap helping to liquify oils and grease in the skin, making particles stick to the skin less. Hot water works better on the soap as well as helps with dissolving these oils (ever try washing dishes by hand in cold water? Good luck!). Dried blood also dissolves better in warm water. Heating the water to boiling ensures that the water is sterile, and then using it after it cools down to tolerable temps makes it much less uncomfortable.

Betadine is worth keeping around for more than just direct wound care. You can use it to sterilize drinking water, or in heavier concentrations for cleaning/sterilizing other things. I use it for my beer kegs. You could use it to swab down an area (a table, for example) for emergency medical care (you could also use bleach and it's cheaper, but some people tolerate idodine better than bleach.)

Again, I'm a huge fan of professional, modern western medicine- but it's not always available, and my one complaint about it would be that the definition of professional is a bit too rigid. We need many more tiers in the medical pyramid. Nurse Practitioners are a good example of a relatively recent "tier" of medical care. I just received my study materials for EMT-B. I don't plan to practice medicine on my own, but I do intend to volunteer and gain more experience for emergencies and the general decline of the medical industry as we slide into the next great depression under Obamacare.

The answer to ignorance is to seek more knowledge, not to stay ignorant and leave it to our betters.

I believe I said "some of you". I was trying not to generalize to the entire forum. And I was trying to make the point that in the area of major wounds or medications a little knowledge can be dangerous or lethal. I didn't even get into drug-drug interactions or other complicated subjects, for instance; Nor do I want to. I don't remember writing anything that said do nothing. If I did that was not my intent; my intent was to make sure people gave it the thoughtfulness the subject deserves, and if they aren't sure -- find out.

By all means basic wound care, CPR, safe body mechanics, how to roll or move injured people (alternatively, know when not to move them), how to make and use the items in a good field kit, and on and on -- are never wasted knowledge. I honestly was just trying to say (as in everything else) know your limitations.

I am a Nurse Practitioner.

I don't have a problem with anything you wrote about hand washing, but the major reason people are told to wash hands with warm water is to keep them washing long enough to get all the benefits you describe. But it isn't necessary -- if you wash your hands long enough for the friction and soap to do their job, you are good to go. Length of time actually washing and making sure you get all areas of the hands done is a key. Tips: keep your hands down so any water runs off your hands and not up your arms. Dry your hands (preferably with disposable material like a paper towel) thoroughly. If you are using a tap, use the paper towel to turn it off, then dispose of the paper.

 

[Thebastidge]

Likewise, I wasn't trying to make it out like you said anything more strenuous against people trying to do the right thing, just that my focus would be advising people to learn more. Glad to hear you are a NP. It's a job that deserves more recognition.

Good discussion on the handwashing- I don't think people give it the consideration it needs. Over here in Afghanistan, often enough a sink with running water is not available, so we use lots of alcohol-based hand sanitizer and walk around with sterile but dirty hands a lot. The alcohol based sanitizer strips all the oil out of your skin and can lead to some pretty ugly skin conditions. I had my fingers cracking until they bled not long after I got here- between the extreme dryness, altitude, and the alcohol gels. I had to actually forego some of the 'handwashing' after simply pissing in a portajohn and add in some hand lotion several times a day. Eventually, my hands healed and I simply washed in a sink whenever the option between sink and sanitizer was there. When only sanitizer was available, I made sure to carry a small tube of hand lotion for afterwards.

 

[timac]

I found this book very informative, Where there is No Doctor by David Werner. Gives you information on dosages for medications for many common illnesses plus much more. I bought mine through Amazon, maybe your local library might have one on the shelf.

 

[SPU]

Likewise, I wasn't trying to make it out like you said anything more strenuous against people trying to do the right thing, just that my focus would be advising people to learn more.

You made good points.

Good discussion on the handwashing- I don't think people give it the consideration it needs. Over here in Afghanistan, often enough a sink with running water is not available, so we use lots of alcohol-based hand sanitizer and walk around with sterile but dirty hands a lot. The alcohol based sanitizer strips all the oil out of your skin and can lead to some pretty ugly skin conditions. I had my fingers cracking until they bled not long after I got here- between the extreme dryness, altitude, and the alcohol gels. I had to actually forego some of the 'handwashing' after simply pissing in a portajohn and add in some hand lotion several times a day. Eventually, my hands healed and I simply washed in a sink whenever the option between sink and sanitizer was there. When only sanitizer was available, I made sure to carry a small tube of hand lotion for afterwards.

Thank you for serving. I mean that.

At my hospital we adopted a local National Guard unit and send them care packages every two weeks with donated items from everybody in my department. I always include the small bottles of sanitizer (big anything don't fit in your pockets well, I understand). Another item I always put in the box is some bottles of hand lotion -- I need it after using the sanitizer a dozen or more times a day at work, so I imagined you guys would in a desert or mountain environment. Also small packages of baby wipes, shaving equipment, Q-tips, etc. Maybe I should start a thread on items needed or wanted in the field by our service men and women. hmmm...


Thanks again for putting yourself on the line.

 

[Thebastidge]

Well, I'm a contractor now- former USAF, but all my time in Iraq and here has been as a civvie. Depending in the unit, there's a lot of care packages sent. It's very nice to see. You are absolutely correct about the hand lotion. It's not really a luxury, it's a necessity to maintain your health. Usually there's a PX, even if it's just a semi-trailer parked somewhere in the FOB, but not always.

 

[Riot]

Bought a bottle of Ciproflaxin, Amoxicycline, Ampicillin and Doxicycline from Amazon.com

They're under "fish antibiotics" but are all USP pharmaceutical grade meds...

 

[Gunner3456]

I would really hope that anyone buying serious meds online or a "Grange Co-op" or other animal/pet supply place google and print out the proper uses, human dosages and the warnings. Some of that stuff can be really dangerous to people who have other medical issues, and of course it's important to know which med to use for which ailment, in what dose, and for how long.