Reloading Math - yup its way lower cost

[CLT65]

Looks like you've got it all figured out...

 

[CLT65]

After such a thorough debunking of the myth of reloading, I'm not sure where to start. You're painting with an awfully broad brush. Reloading certainly can be false economy, but by no means is it always so, even when one considers their time.

What is your time worth? That's going to be different for each person, and each person will put a different value on each thing they do. A high priced lawyer will value their work time much higher than someone retired or on disability. I value my time spent with my kids differently than those 2am work call-outs. Am I going to charge my kids the outrageously high hourly OT wage I get for rushing in to fix a machine in the middle of the night? Of course not.

Everyone has to judge for themself whether it's worth it to them. I will say that if you earn a good wage, with extra hours available, and don't particularly enjoy repetitive tasks like reloading, it's probably not for you. If you're not detail oriented and careful, it's probably not for you.

As to warranties and kabooms; that doesn't mean much to me. I've found that if a new gun under warranty has a legitimate issue, a reputable manufacturer won't ask or care if you reload. If you're detailed and careful, you won't have a kaboom. If you blow up a gun because you weren't careful enough, that's on you; it's one of the risks of reloading. Be more careful or don't reload. No, kabooms are not common among cautious reloaders. I haven't had one in 30 years and many thousands of rounds.

As to resale value of my ammo? I couldn't care less; it's completely irrelevant to me. I load for myself, to enjoy time at the range. The ammo I buy, I buy for myself, with no thought of resale.

I don't know if you intended to come across as condescending, but the good points you made are not universally valid. I'll joke about saving money, and most reloaders will laugh about how you don't save money, you just shoot more, but the actual reality is that if I didn't reload I could not afford to shoot as much as I do. That's a fact. I enjoy it and it is my hobby, but the bottom line is yes, it does save me money.

 

[RVTECH]

I'll joke about saving money, and most reloaders will laugh about how you don't save money, you just shoot more, but the actual reality is that if I didn't reload I could not afford to shoot as much as I do. That's a fact. I enjoy it and it is my hobby, but the bottom line is yes, it does save me money.

Ditto this.
Remember what I posted about reloading:

get into reloading as an extension of your interest in firearms and the desire to get the best performance out of them or variations of performance and specialized loadings you can NOT get unless by reloading.

Many reload for this reason and a LOT more.
What if one is shooting a gun with an obsolete caliber?
How about rounds that are available but only in limited loadings and styles? An example would be 30-30 Winchester and because I reload I can create 'toned down' loads with lighter bullets for plinking on a budget.

So if you spent $5000 turning out ammo

'Spent' $5000? If you are referring to equipment I haven't spent $500 in 40 + years on equipment. Most reloading equipment is more or less a lifetime investment.
I can understand if someone is interested in nothing more than 'spray and pray' with a Hi-Cap firearm, and doesn't care about anything other than finding the cheapest source of bulk ammo but there are MANY gun owners who put more emphasis on 'quality' shooting and accuracy. One example would be long range 'Creedmore' style shooters with Sharps & High Wall style rifles which require reloading for optimal accuracy.
I could go on and on but the reality is reloading is a very vibrant part of a life for a lot of gun owners and shooters and most wouldn't have it any other way - and for many it is quality time spent with their kids!

 

[leadcounsel]

Points above are all good and valid. None of them pertain to "yup it's way lower cost."

Hobby, enjoyment, spending time with kids, developing loads - fantastic.

But "saving money" is invalid. The entire point of the thread. If the thread were "reasons I enjoy reloading" then sure. It's not. It's about it being cheaper to shoot, which is an ECONOMIC argument, and fails to factor time. NO economic argument is valid if a key input (time) is omitted.

As to "not caring" if the ammo has economic value; I highly doubt that. Being obtuse about the point of "spending $5000" to make ammo to purposefully miss the point doesn't fare well. Where is your powder, new brass (can't use indefinitely, and there's costs to buying or salvaging brass), bullets, and primers coming from? Are you not stockpiling ammo cans full of ammo, like most folks? What happens if you are 5 years into stocking ammo and you have a kaboom from a load? ALL that prior ammo needs to be pulled or thrown out. Conversely, a factory that discovers a recall will reimburse you for the ammo which has a LOT number... I could go on, but the point is made. ANY stockpile of ammo, regardless of your "magical free inputs" is worthless to others, and not worth salvage costs, and would need to be pulled if errors in loads found.

Carry on with the discussion, but you're delusioned if you think it's economically cheaper if you have an ability to earn a good wage.

 

[RVTECH]

Are you not stockpiling ammo cans full of ammo, like most folks? What happens if you are 5 years into stocking ammo and you have a kaboom from a load?

No I do NOT stockpile ammo ('like most folks') and most of the reloaders I know don't either - we stockpile COMPONENTS.
Most dedicated reloaders (who reload as a hobby) tend to try different loads, powders, bullets etc. frequently and typically don't stockpile mass quantities of ammo. Heck If I have 700 rounds of assorted calibers on hand, loaded, that is a lot for me.
I have several established 'pet' loads I use for a certain few guns and keep the components on hand so I can load whenever necessary.
I reload for quality, consistency and accuracy and not to just stockpile for some 'eventuality'.

 

[CLT65]

Points above are all good and valid. None of them pertain to "yup it's way lower cost."

Hobby, enjoyment, spending time with kids, developing loads - fantastic.

But "saving money" is invalid. The entire point of the thread. If the thread were "reasons I enjoy reloading" then sure. It's not. It's about it being cheaper to shoot, which is an ECONOMIC argument, and fails to factor time. NO economic argument is valid if a key input (time) is omitted.

As to "not caring" if the ammo has economic value; I highly doubt that. Being obtuse about the point of "spending $5000" to make ammo to purposefully miss the point doesn't fare well. Where is your powder, new brass (can't use indefinitely, and there's costs to buying or salvaging brass), bullets, and primers coming from? Are you not stockpiling ammo cans full of ammo, like most folks? What happens if you are 5 years into stocking ammo and you have a kaboom from a load? ALL that prior ammo needs to be pulled or thrown out. Conversely, a factory that discovers a recall will reimburse you for the ammo which has a LOT number... I could go on, but the point is made. ANY stockpile of ammo, regardless of your "magical free inputs" is worthless to others, and not worth salvage costs, and would need to be pulled if errors in loads found.

Carry on with the discussion, but you're delusioned if you think it's economically cheaper if you have an ability to earn a good wage.

I've never understood why some people feel the need to deliberately offend others, in the quest to show their own superiority and make some kind of point. I just don't get it.

The absolute provable, demonstrable fact is that yes, sometimes you CAN save money by reloading, even when you consider your time and investment. I'm not going to even bother debating point by point because at this point it's absurd, and I've already wasted too much time responding to something like this. This is a silly thing to argue over. You won't win this one. You can't, because you are demonstrably wrong, and it's not hard to prove it. All the what-ifs and ya-buts in the world won't change that. If you had said that there are no economic saving when all things all considered for "many reloaders" or even "most reloaders", I would gladly concede your point, but to impugn all reloaders as stupid, dishonest, or delusioned for claiming savings is ridiculous.

You don't want to reload, I get that. You think reloaders are stupid for wasting their time, I get that. You make lots of money and buy all your ammo, I get that. You're really into warranties and stockpiling and your ammo "investment", I get that. Why you come on a thread like this with such a condescending tone and start throwing insults at the foolish little reloaders? I don't get it.

 

[CLT65]

I hate contentious threads like this, and getting sucked into them. I apologize to anyone I've unintentionally offended. I'm out of this one. Now to go find the IGNORE button...

 

[leadcounsel]

I've never understood why some people feel the need to deliberately offend others, in the quest to show their own superiority and make some kind of point. I just don't get it.

The absolute provable, demonstrable fact is that yes, sometimes you CAN save money by reloading, even when you consider your time and investment. I'm not going to even bother debating point by point because at this point it's absurd, and I've already wasted too much time responding to something like this. This is a silly thing to argue over. You won't win this one. You can't, because you are demonstrably wrong, and it's not hard to prove it. All the what-ifs and ya-buts in the world won't change that. If you had said that there are no economic saving when all things all considered for "many reloaders" or even "most reloaders", I would gladly concede your point, but to impugn all reloaders as stupid, dishonest, or delusioned for claiming savings is ridiculous.

You don't want to reload, I get that. You think reloaders are stupid for wasting their time, I get that. You make lots of money and buy all your ammo, I get that. You're really into warranties and stockpiling and your ammo "investment", I get that. Why you come on a thread like this with such a condescending tone and start throwing insults at the foolish little reloaders? I don't get it.

False on every point. Not interested in arguing about it. Yes, you are getting rich reloading. About to order a Dillon 650 and some Amway while I'm at it...

 

[deadeye]

Unless you reload you just don't get it. YES you save money and NO you don't figure your time in as if you have time to reload you obviously don't have anything better to do. Some just wont get it that reloading does have advantages most of which is consistency. I don't stockpile ammo for an investment or use it like a savings account who in their right mind would do that? My equipment has long been paid for with the savings just on 45lc alone so I wouldn't even figure in that aspect.

If you have a kaboom why would you pull down or discard all your ammo? As I understand it most reloaders mark ammo adequately with load data, used components and when it was loaded. I don't think I could load that much in a full day let alone a few hrs to really have a lot to set aside and check as time permits. As far as warranties go I haven't had the need to use one since I started shooting let alone reloading. If you have half a brain, can pay attention and able to read, reloading is not as hard, dangerous or time consuming as some seem to think.

I just picked up a speer book and read the directions the equipment came with and started reloading. I didn't have anyone to show me how to get started and did just fine.

 

[RVTECH]

I just picked up a speer book and read the directions the equipment came with and started reloading.

As I did along with many others.

Excellent summation of reloading Deadeye - spot on!

 

[User 1234]

If you choose to reload, great. If you choose not to reload, great. I don't care if anyone else arrives at the same decision that I do.

 

[osprey]

There are many good reasons to reload, the least of which is cost savings, albeit there are some tangible savings. I have been reloading for 38 years and have yet to have a kaboom and only 3 or 4 squibs all but one were shotshell reloads. I would never try to convince somebody to reload solely on economic benefit. In fact I don't try to convince anybody to do it at all. I have however mentored several people who have come to me to learn the ropes. I find it a very complimentary and enjoyable hobby to go along with owning firearms. I do still buy some factory ammo for pistol as well as some 223 and 7.62x39. Reloading is not for everybody but it suits me fine!

 

[User 1234]

Thread drift: are there any places in Pierce County that reach reloading? I'd like to reload a few oddball cartridges.

 

[turbo_vanner]

I do it to save money, amongst other things. For plinking, pull down powders and projectiles are dirt cheap in bulk, and accurate enough. For match grade, you still come out half off due to the upcharge with factory stuff.

There are better savings with niche ammo like subsonic 300blk, I cast mine and it comes out to about 15 cents per round. 66-80% cheaper than factory. I can also do frangible 223 for 15-20 cents each, easily a 50-75% savings. Shooting dueling trees and silhouettes up close and personal with your favorite AR is priceless.

My time I use to do this is relatively worthless, I would more often than not be watching tv or playing video games if I wasn't loading. The tools maybe set me back $300-500, it's only been a year, and I can't remember and don't care because it's been so worth it.

And I don't shoot more, yet. I actually shoot less having to develop loads. Set up the chrono, sand bags, paper targets, collect and inspect brass, log velocities, measure groups, etc. I can spend 4 or 5 hours out at wolf creek and only go through 100 rounds. A year in, and I'm just now settling on my plinking loads. I haven't even developed any match loads.

 

[osprey]

Thread drift: are there any places in Pierce County that reach reloading? I'd like to reload a few oddball cartridges.

I have never heard of a class for reloading but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Your best bet would to find a family member or a friend/acquaintance to help you get started. You could put out some feelers here as well and you may find someone in your area to help. If we were not so far apart, I could help you out. Baring that every decent load manual has a primer section on how to load and that is how I learned originally.

 

[tac]

That's odd that you should mention 'kabooms'. I've been reloading around twenty-five different calibres, although I'm now down to just seven, since the late 60's, and I've never had a 'kaboom'. That's not to say I never will, mind, just to point out that not every reloader gets his share of overly-exciting loads.

 

[RVTECH]

and I've never had a 'kaboom'

Neither have I and no one I know who reloads has either.
I'll admit some of them I have read about have been reloads - bot not all.

 

[DizzyJ]

I have never heard of a class for reloading but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Your best bet would to find a family member or a friend/acquaintance to help you get started. You could put out some feelers here as well and you may find someone in your area to help. If we were not so far apart, I could help you out. Baring that every decent load manual has a primer section on how to load and that is how I learned originally.

Douglas ridge rifle club puts one on occasionally.

 

[Helocat]

Points above are all good and valid. None of them pertain to "yup it's way lower cost."

Hobby, enjoyment, spending time with kids, developing loads - fantastic.

But "saving money" is invalid. The entire point of the thread. If the thread were "reasons I enjoy reloading" then sure. It's not. It's about it being cheaper to shoot, which is an ECONOMIC argument, and fails to factor time. NO economic argument is valid if a key input (time) is omitted.

As to "not caring" if the ammo has economic value; I highly doubt that. Being obtuse about the point of "spending $5000" to make ammo to purposefully miss the point doesn't fare well. Where is your powder, new brass (can't use indefinitely, and there's costs to buying or salvaging brass), bullets, and primers coming from? Are you not stockpiling ammo cans full of ammo, like most folks? What happens if you are 5 years into stocking ammo and you have a kaboom from a load? ALL that prior ammo needs to be pulled or thrown out. Conversely, a factory that discovers a recall will reimburse you for the ammo which has a LOT number... I could go on, but the point is made. ANY stockpile of ammo, regardless of your "magical free inputs" is worthless to others, and not worth salvage costs, and would need to be pulled if errors in loads found.

Carry on with the discussion, but you're delusioned if you think it's economically cheaper if you have an ability to earn a good wage.

Ah, the false economy of reloading. I get a laugh every time. Reloaders conveniently never factor the equipment, storage space, learning curves, setup, time, voided gun warranties, and the cost of the "kabooms" that are more common with reloads and almost never with factory ammo (and factory ammo companies or the gun companies will replace the gun). [Reloaders never have "kabooms" yet nearly every "kaboom" story shared on the internet involves a reload.]

And then there's the known false economy of taking valuable components (time, primers, brass, powder, and bullet) and using expensive equipment to churn out items of ZERO economic resale value. Nobody smart will shoot or buy someone's reloads. So if you spent $5000 turning out ammo, and have a huge hoard of ammo, but fall on hard economic times, you will be unable to sell it at any price. Conversely, if someone has the same amount of factory ammo, he can sell it for basically market price and it might appreciate over time. I bought thousands of rounds of various ammo a decade or two ago, and they have doubled in value. The same is not true for the reloader.

If it's your "hobby" then fine. Stop pretending you're 'saving money' because if you are employable, you likely are not saving money sitting at a reloading press.

I've done the math. Honest reloaders will tell you they don't save money; they just enjoy it.

I guess if you remove the "time value of money" then I can shoot for free. I just work a bunch (not factored of course) then buy the ammo with my earned wages (not factored) and it's magically free from the time I worked and wages I earned.

Heck, pretty much everything in life is free if you don't factor your time. Fishing, walking across country instead of flying, farming is free, working is free, driving is free... it's a stupid thing to state, yet reloaders never manage to factor their time.

You are incorrect.

Your reasoning is the same as saying "you're delusional buying a home, keep renting".

First, go back and actually read the OP. #1 thing I point out is I reload because I enjoy it and its the same to me as shooting at the range. Using your thought process one would then also ask to be compensated for also shooting let alone reloading.

But let's address your its "invalid" thoughts for "the entire point of the thread".

Using my example and excluding the 7.62 x 51 I see an annual savings of $2,397.12. For these calibers, I reload for I pick up more brass than I shoot so brass cost is irrelevant. I form my own 300blk from 5.56 so large flowing supply of these, more on that in a moment.

My equipment for my examples is done with two Dillon 1050's w/one 1500 case trimmer w/ one Mr. Bullet feeder, primer loader, dies, scale, tumblers, miss. All in call it $6k

Deprecation of used Dillon equipment about 34% (typical 1050 sells new for $1800 sells quickly used for $1200 = 33.333%, Dillon 550c, Current new is $490 (it was $390 when I bought it last) last used one I sold for $350 = 29% deprecation) Erroring on the high side we will call it 34% loss off retail new.

$6k + depreciation of 34% = my gear is good for $3960 ROI anytime. This means I have $2,040 in actual COST to factor into the cost of the equipment for the very loads I have used in my example. Given Dillon warranties their gear for consumer use, if there is an issue they will send replacement parts. My 550B is 22yrs old and still working flawlessly. Let's go with half this, again to an error on the conservative side. If I continue shooting as I do, reload as I do and sell my gear after 11yrs these are my numbers:

$2,397.12 x 11 = $26,368.32 in savings before paying for time or equipment. Subtract the $2,040 in actual cost I have $24,328.32 to pay myself for time over those 11 yrs, or $2,211.67 per yr.

TIME:

Reloading
900-1000 9mm per hour Average
600 300blk per hour Average

Case prep
1500 cases per hr

Time used:
800 9MM per month + case prep call it 1hr of time
200 300blk + case prep = 1/2hr conservative
1hr set up, adjustments
1hr inspection packaging
1.5hr for rounding for anything else missed.

5hrs total of my time to load the rounds used in this example. With $2,211.67 per month for my time, this makes each hour worth $442.33.

Cut that down to just 25% of this number TO BE ULTRA conservative and it's still $110.5 per hour in savings to load my own rounds for how my family shoots. To put that in perspective w/ 2019 having about 2000 work hours in it, this would be like making $221,000.00 per yr.

Back to the 300blk brass. I continue to sell 300blk brass I form from free brass from friends and range pickups at $10 per 100. On my Dillon 1050 w/1500 case trimmer, I can make about 700 per hour. So a small extra $70 per hour is made when I am punching out 300blk. This is on top of the other savings I have and funds go for components to load with. This is all extra.

Bottom line is for me I clearly am saving considerably in remanufacturing my own ammunition. No fallacies. Hard numbers prove savings. Yet my #1 motivator still is because I like to do it, but I still stand by my "yup its way lower cost"

 

[turbo_vanner]

That's pretty much the gist of it, either you enjoy it, or you have other things to do.

I love it. I never thought I would be a guy with 50lbs of gunpowder and a couple thousand projectiles in his basement, but after seeing the quality of rounds I can make, I'm sold for life.