Reloading Math - yup its way lower cost

[Mikej]

That's pretty much the gist of it, either you enjoy it, or you have other things to do.

I love it. I never thought I would be a guy with 50lbs of gunpowder and a couple thousand projectiles in his basement, but after seeing the quality of rounds I can make, I'm sold for life.

If you still have 50# of powder powder in the basement, you need to get hopping and turn that into more of them quality rounds!

"I'm going quit hand loading and find another 40 hour a week job" Said no one.

 

[awshoot]

Never factor in equipment. It's always sellable at 3/4 what you paid. Holds value.

Consumables are what you track. If I counted equipment I'd be loading forever to offset the costs but I enjoy it when my hands allow.

TLDR: pistol gear is cheap and pays for itself fast, rifle gear is like boats: the amount you can spend is capped only by the amount of money you have.

I started reloading in 1994 (or maybe 1995 if I really think about it) -- anyway, I bought an RCBS single stage kit and a couple die sets for pistols (I just looked at the boxes they came in, $28.99 for one and $29.99 for the other, both carbide dies, half what I paid last weekend for a different caliber). It was probably $200 to $300. At the time I was shooting about 200 rds per weekend and I remember thinking that $40/wk (while a student) was pretty steep. I also recall that I was able to load .38s for about six or seven bucks per 100 and .45s for a bit more, both using hard cast lead bullets. I paid off the equipment costs in one summer approx 20 years ago. I still have everything I bought and still use it. If I gave up reloading, I could get some percentage of cash back (probably break even on the dies, not counting inflation).

I added a bigger Redding single stage when I got into bottleneck reloading. For rifle, the amount you can spend on equipment (mostly case prep related) is limited only by your pocketbook -- I added on a case length trimmer and trimmer holders plus separate inside case neck cutters, case neck outside trimmer and holders, primer pocket and flash hole tools, bullet comparators (I already had calipers for other reasons). Brass itself. I still need a concentricity gauge and after that it will be something else. The break even point is more than a summer of shooting I believe. ;-)

 

[awshoot]

... and ones time is also valuable. But its fun to use ...

I don't calculate my time because when I'm reloading, I'm reloading during time nobody would pay me for. If you can't sell something (including time), it isn't worth anything. Nobody calculates the value of their time spent watching a movie or TV (in fact, you typically have to pay whether that is by movie tickets or Netflix subscription or cable). Plus it IS fun -- it's fun to get a good deal and it's fun to develop a good load and it's fun to shoot what you made.

 

[awshoot]

Points above are all good and valid. None of them pertain to "yup it's way lower cost."

Hobby, enjoyment, spending time with kids, developing loads - fantastic.

But "saving money" is invalid. The entire point of the thread. ...

Comparing reloaded ammo to a box of Wolf is not always a good comparison. If a cheap brand of ammo gives you the best accuracy in your particular firearm, the comparison is valid, but that's honestly more rare than common. What you need to compare is the cost of custom ammo tuned to your firearm.

Even with pistols, minor differences can have great effects. I'm sure I look silly shooting a pistol on a rest at a target just 15 yds away, but looking at my data from my last such range trip while developing a .357 load for a specific bullet, with powder weight variations of 0.2 grains for each series, lead to 10 shot group sizes ranging from a low of 1.9" to a high of 5". The ammo I make for that gun should not be compared to whatever price I can get by buying bulk ammo on sale, it should be compared to the cost of hiring a person to develop a custom load tuned to my firearm and to then manufacture that load with extreme precision. I don't know what that price is but it surely exceeds the price of bulk Aguila.

 

[awshoot]

... I just picked up a speer book and read the directions the equipment came with and started reloading. I didn't have anyone to show me how to get started and did just fine.

Ditto -- except my Speer book came as part of a kit.

 

[RVTECH]

Ditto -- except my book came as part of a kit.

So did mine - Speer #9 !

 

[awshoot]

So did mine - Speer #9 !

Just looked at mine, #12. ;-)

 

[tac]

My .308 Win load is BETTER than the 168gr Lapua Match cartridge - proven by my own wallet and results. A few years ago, a press reporter for the NRA at a Bisley shoot accidentally kicked over my rifle as he was stepping back to get a long shot of the line-up of almost a hundred rifle-persons. I used up three rounds I needed on the zeroing range to make sure that the scope was not damaged, so I was three rounds short for the comp. In a fit of mad generosity, he offered to buy me a box of 20 of the best that Lapua could offer, as a sop sweeten me out of beating him to death with his soggy camera back.

I shot my sighters - none to count - with the Lapua stuff - and finished off with my own loads. The Lapua stuff shot tolerably well, but my loads, using Lapua bullets and cases and Vihtavuori N140, did a deal better.

My loads cost me around 70c a shot - the Lapua stuff cost just under $2.80 a shot.

'nuff said, I reckon.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I always say, It would have cost me $45.00 to shoot this group. Had I been using factory ammo:

As you can see, accuracy is of the utmost importance to me.

Nosler Safari Ammo 9.3x62mm Mauser 286 Grain Partition Box of 20
^^^^^ For Those of you naysayers that don't check out this link, I'll just let you know that that ammo is priced at $97.99/box of 20!!!!!!!^^^^^

However, the ammo I load, is far better because it is tailor made to MY rifles. And it is a whole hell of a lot cheaper. When I bought the rifle, it came with brand spankin new Norma brass. So in a sense, the brass didn't cost me a cent. The rifle also came with reloading dies and different bullets to try out. When buying bullets, I am very selective: I always buy my Nosler bullets at SPS, which if you don't know it yet, that is by far the best place to buy Nosler bullets. I always buy the seconds and blemished bullets because they work just as good as the firsts, but are offered at a substantial discount. This hand loaded ammo also works quite well on big game animals:


On the subject of bullets, I was driving through Burns yesterday and stopped at their small town gunshop and ran across a good deal on .338 250gr. Nosler partitions. They were the seconds and still in bags of 50. At $15.00/bag, I couldn't turn them down and bought all 6 bags. That is an excellent elk dropping bullet in my 338wm. You would be hard pressed to find first's at $40.00/box..... As a matter of fact, I just checked midway. They have some ON SALE!!!! $48.44!!! Regular price is $56.99 .... When hand loading, we have the right to be as selective as we want to be and we have fun at our hobby too. So as a general rule, I never include my time as a "cost" when handloading. It's all part of our sport, just as shooting and punching paper targets or ringing steel is.... Math is easy, but it's all in how you look at it I guess.....

 

[osprey]

Back when I tolerated recoil better, I used 250gr partitions out of a 338 rum to great effect. It is amazing to me how accurate and how well a 70 year old bullet design still stacks up today. Cheers to John Nosler, a man way ahead of his time!
!

 

[Capn Jack]

Saving Money
For my cast bullets, I decided to try and beat the cost of copper gas checks, aprox. $35.00k and bought a gas check cutter. $100.00

Right away I found it was very difficult to make the cutter work in my RCBS jr.press, so I bought a 1 ton Arbor press.$50.00

The Arbor press was great, but the cutter kept falling over, so I had to buy some oversized drills and counter bore the press anvil to hold the cutter. $25.00

Now for material: My local Sears has .014 aluminum flashing 50'x6". You can special order it from their supplier, for $40.00 a roll. Cut into 3/4" wide strips, that's approximately 800 strips per roll.

By being careful, I can punch 8 GC per strip giving me 6,400 gas checks per roll. That's a savings of almost $5.00.

At this rate I'll only have to shoot about 6,400 .459 cal. bullets (275lbs of lead) to amortize the cost of making my own gas checks.

After that, THEY'RE FREE !!!

Been thinking about saving some more money by buying a.....

Oh! Can't forget the the cost of Kevlar gloves and a box of Band Aids for handling the cutout scrap material. It's like Razor Wire.

There's also the saving I made by buying a .22lr adapter for my wife's 9mm pistol. ($250.00) Now, I can save a lot on the cost of 9mm....which I reload, (Range Brass) and don't "buy" anyway....

Jack

 

[awshoot]

I always say, It would have cost me $45.00 to shoot this group. Had I been using factory ammo: ...

And that's IF factory ammo would have shot that group in the first place. If it wouldn't and you had to pay for a custom load, purchased ammo would have been way more than $45.

I did a search and this place has some prices for custom load development (not a recommendation, just what came up in my search). It takes 5-12 weeks depending on package (lowest is $300 most expensive is $1600) -- you have to send them your rifle and pay shipping both ways.

Development costs: Tuning Packages - Prices/Details
Ammo price: Custom Hand Loaded Rifle Ammunition-Not Generic

 

[leadcounsel]

Appears some of you should go into business making ammo. Such amazing profits for ammo better than the professionals can make. And $400 per hour doing it!

 

[awshoot]

Appears some of you should go into business making ammo. Such amazing profits for ammo better than the professionals can make. And $400 per hour doing it!

I think it is fair to say that the market for custom ammo is small so it is a valid point that most people aren't going to make money reloading and selling it (after getting the appropriate license of course). I think it is also a fair point that the value of reloaded ammo is not comparable to whatever random product can be found on sale in bulk, at least when we're talking distances greater than X ft. My subjective sense with pistol ammo is that under 15' it probably doesn't matter if you're talking self-defense over target shooting. Maybe around 30' (at this distance, we're almost certainly talking target shooting over SD) I think the differences are apparent. That's a subjective impression only. For rifles -- I haven't shot enough factory rifle ammo to build up an impression -- when I buy factory rifle ammo, I'm buying it for the brass and just plink away whatever I bought.

 

[Ownerus]

Ha! Posted this to the wrong thread so ill try again ;^)

Years ago, while at a gravel pit shooting, my buddy got a wry look on his face. He grabbed his wallet, pulled out a wad of bills and threw them downrange and shouted "cut out the middleman".
If you REALLY want to save money, stop shooting altogether. Like most hobbies, it all costs money. If guns are just a secondary hobby and not a passion, reloading won't be worth it. Reloading CAN reduce the burn rate and really opens a lot of options in accuracy and variety (while maybe giving a bit of coverage against spousal criticism) but, yeah, it doesn't really "save" money.

 

[Retired Guy]

This is one of those discussions that will never be resolved because everyone's experience is different. I got started in reloading in the late 1970s to save money and now I do it for the flexibility.
I grew up in a small town with only 3 gun shops. There was no Walmart, mail order, or wholesale. A box of Winchester 45 ACP ball ammo was $18. Minimum wage was $1.65/hr. As a college student, I had to work about 11 hours to pay for that one box of ammo. One gun shop owner told me about reloading and how I can reuse that brass for 10-12 times. In just reloading components and my time, I could reload that box of 50 for about $3. You can see the savings and I paid for my reloading gear many times over. I still have and use my Forster Co-Ax press that I bought in 1978.
Ammo is cheap now. I mean really cheap compared to what it used to be. But I just reloaded some 5.56 ammo with 55 grain BTHP for 18¢ each. Still worth it to me. For someone starting today? Hard to say.

 

[PNWguy]

I first got into reloading when shooting BPCR matches in Phoenix. You absolutely HAD to roll your own .45-70 rounds tuned to your rifle to be competitive. Plus, "factory" loaded black powder cartridges are around $2 each. Shooting 60 rounds each match can get very costly. Step up to the .45-90 or .45-100 and they are about double the cost.

Then I bought a .45 Colt and wanted to make my own "bear" loads using 300gr bullets I cast myself.

Then I got a 10mm. Enough said.

I still only have a Lee single-stage press and turning 100 spent cases into freshly reloaded custom ammo takes me about 2-3 hours of relaxing time listening to talk radio.

I recently built a .450 Bushmaster AR and reloading allows me great latitude in creating everything from plinking loads to loads worthy of carrying in Grizzly country.

 

[Helocat]

Appears some of you should go into business making ammo. Such amazing profits for ammo better than the professionals can make. And $400 per hour doing it!

Nope. My remanufactured ammunition is priceless. Savings = shoot more.

The professionals sell to those who do not reload, I am sure they appreciate the support.

 

[leadcounsel]

The OP made an economic argument, which I believe is debatable. The economic arguments about which "HOBBY" is better for saving money are interesting if nothing else. An hour spent reloading is an hour not spent on better or worse activities. Watching TV, playing the winning hand a blackjack, playing the losing hand a blackjack, meeting one's future wife, divorcing one's wife, working in a job you love and earning a lot of money or working in a job you hate earning little money...

There are better and worse things to do with your time. Hookers, drugs, volunteering for charity, reading, yard work, cooking, and on and on... the lists of opportunity costs is endless.

It's true that reloading, from a purely economics standpoint, seems to have an alleged immediately return on investment (ROI) and an allegedly better accuracy. Both are debatable points in terms of veracity, and relevance. Is your 1/4" better grouping of material difference in terms of handgun practice, or rifle target practice, or even hunting? In other words is your 2.5 inch 10 yard group "better" than my 2.75" group? Is a 1.5" group "better" than a 1.75" group at 180 yards for a hunter who needs to hit an relatively large area at least the size of a pie plate... Um. Maybe?? But purely from a standpoint of "I loaded this much ammo from these inexpensive parts and saved X dollars in my idle time, and improved my groupings X amount..." Sure. Okay. There are worse ways.

But if you've spent your entire life developing the "perfect" load for your carry gun and your deer rifle (thousand of hours and dollars), and I walk into a store and buy a box nearly as good for $50... who came out "ahead?" And as I mentioned prior, I could turn around and get almost $50 for my factory box of ammo. The reloader probably would struggle to give away his ammo. And while folks "claim" they don't sell their ammo, there's an entire thread on all gun forums about ammo sales and there IS a market to sell factory (but not private reloaded) ammunition. So the reloader takes 5 inputs, and creates something of zero economic return unless he personally shoots it.

But reloaders NEVER want to factor any negative inputs or ROIs and long-term.

If this were PURELY an debate on which "HOBBIES" offer the best ROI, then it would clearly be something athletic that lowers blood pressure, body mass index, improves flexibility and body and core strength etc. And sitting at a sedentary reloading bench for hours isn't any of these things. Considering big picture, a triple bipass is a 6 figure surgery and even an insurance co-pay is many thousands of dollars. Cutting years off ones' life is "costly" too...

Risk of being a murder victim in America: 1 in 20,000. And can be mitigated by not being engaged in risky crime or gang behaviors and avoiding certain locations like poor urban areas.

Risk of dying of heart disease in American: 1 in 4.
Also in the top 10 killers of Americans: Diabetes and Strokes.

So a better ROI would be to invest in some running shoes and run or join a gym and trim your BMI and do some yoga... A runner might not get any "immediate" economic return, but on average will live a longer and healthier life without cardiac and diabetes and stroke problems which are a main killer of Americans...

I snowboard as a hobby. It always costs me money. It's a sunk cost for something I love to do and it recharges my batteries and I love everything about it. I don't and never would factor how much I'm "saving" by doing my hobby. It's weird logic.

And if this upsets you, perhaps your hobby is too emotional and you're not a rational thinker on the economics angle. Because economics arguments are not emotional - they are logical.

 

[Mikej]

Appears some of you should go into business making ammo. Such amazing profits for ammo better than the professionals can make. And $400 per hour doing it!

Geezuz man. Do you do anything for recreation? How does that pencil out? If a person really wants to save money, just work/sleep and eat nothing but Campbell's Condensed Soup. There's some real savings there! Reloading is entertainment. I get a kick looking at that ammo on the shelf and thinking that I don't need to buy that. That right there is what makes it worth it to ME. You don't wanna' load? Don't load. It's that simple. Coming on a reloading sub-forum, of a large firearms discussion forum, and yapping like we're all fools for loading our own ammo just seems silly.