Recent Attack: Lessons Learned

[clearconscience]

Great post,
And a good reminder to be a good citizen. Not only for yourself and your family but for your neihbor.

I have a CCW and I haven't carried in a long time. Mostly because I'm afraid of doing something wrong, i.e. carrying in the wrong place, or not being completely concealed.
I also had to sell my conceal piece for the money. It's been a bad couple of years money wise.
I'm looking at getting another piece and have been reading up on laws and regs so I'm better informed to what I can and cannot do.
The only problem is laws are subject to interpretation, and in this area the law is usually against you.

 

[geoffap]

Great post,
And a good reminder to be a good citizen. Not only for yourself and your family but for your neihbor.

I have a CCW and I haven't carried in a long time. Mostly because I'm afraid of doing something wrong, i.e. carrying in the wrong place, or not being completely concealed.
I also had to sell my conceal piece for the money. It's been a bad couple of years money wise.
I'm looking at getting another piece and have been reading up on laws and regs so I'm better informed to what I can and cannot do.
The only problem is laws are subject to interpretation, and in this area the law is usually against you.

Which of the following would you prefer?
A. To be dead
B. Badly injured
C. Loved ones dead
D. Defend my right to use deadly force

I'd take a refresher CCW course if you're concerned about the most recent laws......The instructors I've met spend a great deal of time on the non-carry situations.

If you can't afford a small carry weapon and a refresher course you need to get a part time job delivering pizzas until you can afford them......What is your life worth?.......What put me into action was the thought of regret if I didn't do what I could to defend the lives of my loved ones.

My current and favorite choice of concealed carry is a Seecamp 380.....It is small enough that I do carry it all the time......I have a Covert Clip replacement grip on mine that allows me to carry in almost any situation no matter what my attire is......I prefer to carry it in a jacket pocket in a Desantis Nemesis Pocket Holster......I'll carry a 2nd larger pistol if my attire and circumstance permit.

I hope I never have to use my weapons to defend myself or someone else.....but I would rather have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.

 

[Gunner3456]

Wow, some potentially great threads can sure twist into circles, can't they.

Thanks for the original post, OFADAN.

Sorry this went all the way to the bottom including a grammar police visit and also so far off topic as to almost render your good and wise post useless at times.

Just FYI it was very helpful to me. Please keep them coming.

Cliff

 

[Riot]

I went for a jog without my gun today. No problems. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.

I will go ahead and assume that Mr. Farnam has chosen to carry a sidearm at all times but why must he insist on insulting those who have made a choice that differs from his?

Thanks for sharing the compelling story. Does anyone happen to have any particulars about the case, such as the date of occurrence and names of those involved? I'd like to follow the story for any updates on the pursuit of the attackers.

It's not his opinion that two unarmed people were victimized...and that they could have left the incident on their own two feet if they were carrying.

Why have a CCW if you don't carry it all the time? It's like if I gave you a free gas card...you know- free gas for a year. But you decide to only carry it on you when you THINK you will run out of gas.

So you're going to sit here and tell us when, by whome, and where you think you will become a victim of a violent crime? No really, I would like to hear this...maybe even take notes. Because if you can predict such a thing, I would like to know and I'm sure everyone here would as well.

 

[Riot]

Great post,
And a good reminder to be a good citizen. Not only for yourself and your family but for your neihbor.

I have a CCW and I haven't carried in a long time. Mostly because I'm afraid of doing something wrong, i.e. carrying in the wrong place, or not being completely concealed.
I also had to sell my conceal piece for the money. It's been a bad couple of years money wise.
I'm looking at getting another piece and have been reading up on laws and regs so I'm better informed to what I can and cannot do.
The only problem is laws are subject to interpretation, and in this area the law is usually against you.

I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

 

[Scott]

John is a good friend and highly reputable colleague and has an extensive world-wide network of like-minded individuals sending him accounts of self-defense related incidents for all of us to learn from. He teaches all over the world, is a decorated combat vet and retired LEO. John is a full time educator of the art and discpline of self defense and pistolcraft. Full time meaning he does this full time professionally and full time meaning this is all he "lives, eats and breaths." He helps people like us for pay and for free - as in providing these valuable after action reports for the purposes of learning from others successes, failures and mishaps.

Anyway, I've asked John for more details and will post them if they become available. Most likely (this is purely supposition, John's source is someone within a government agency) However, for me I've learned an extremely valuable lesson and will cease submitting these after action reports for (what I thought was the) good of the community. Many of you seem to apprecate them while others took offense or are insulted which is not the purpose of this post.

Therefore, please accept my most sincere apology if this After Action post failed to educate and is perceived as something to "insinuated or insult" as that is NOT the intent. The only reason I posted this was purely for education and awareness - validation for some of us.

The top two links from newspapers are about the attack and the bottom (third one) talks briefly about his career with the CIA - they don't disclose much other than confirming the man who died did have a concealed carry permit and he is a former CIA Consultant.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...n-by-Bizarre-Murder-Mystery.html?corder=&pg=1

<broken link removed>

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Ex-CIA-Contractor-Killed-on-Loudoun-County-Trail.html

Dan,

Don't stop posting stories because of people who don't or can't believe it did not happen and when this happens frequently. Share what you know because it can't hurt.

 

[madderg]

AS far as martial arts goes, you have to train to maim or kill in the most efficient and quickest ways to be effective...SIGHT-BREATH-MOBILITY...in that order if possible. From a 30+ year practitioner.

 

[A.I.P.]

Any updates?

 

[Riot]

Any updates?

Um...wow. I had to dig a bit but I found out their names.

Husband: William Bennett, 57
Wife: Cynthia Bennett, 55

Some interesting facts:

*William Bennett was a CIA contractor. Investigators were worried that the attack was related to his former occupation, but that was not the case (just some senseless, random beating).
*There were three subjects that jumped William and Cynthia.
*They have all been charged with murder, abduction, robbery and rape.
*The three subjects are Jaime Ayala, Anthony Roberts and Darwin Bowman
*Cynthia Bennett is alive and has testified against the subjects.

Sad...sounds like they robbed and killed William, then raped and left Cynthia for dead. Reading on the investigation it sounds like they tried to hide their bodies off the trail and it was a miracle that that Cynthia survived. Said she was suffering from hypothermia. Also this sounds like this wasn't their first time attacking random people...they jumped some people in a community center a month prior, same kinda thing...three guys in a white van jumped out attacked random people and robbed them- but they didn't rape or kill anyone that time.

*sigh*

Anyone else think we should just "flush" these three?

 

[augfan]

Anyone else think we should just "flush" these three?

Flush away........

 

[theficklefinger]

In the interest of furthering a rational discussion, I think it's really silly to argue the veracity of an incident like this for one simple reason.

The probability of the most heinous possible thing you can imagine happening to people, in a world of 7 billion people is by all probability happening right now.

Technically I could sit here and fabricate horrible story after story, and another forum member could all but search the internet for a similar real life incident where it actually happened.

That said, what I get out of this scenario, like others I have heard on the East Coast is that some people live in crappy areas. Read up on the supreme court justices getting jacked jogging in DC, or the latest down in the West Indies.

So question where you live, the threat level, with my advice, that if you really need to wear a gun as more then a 'what if' you might consider just living somewhere else. I am pretty sure that couple in the hospital are reevaluating right now their career and real estate choice, much like a few people that moved to New York, couldn't own a gun and got beat up and robbed just down the street from where live.

Acceptance of this behavior where 'just give them your money' and you will be ok, is 'sheeple thinking at best' not to mention completely humiliating in ones acceptance in their inability to protect themselves and some twisted sense of security and trust in a the crooks and system that they won't 'really get hurt, just robbed'.

I could have taken any number of high paying jobs in high crime areas, that would have been fine for me, but less safe for the family...in hindsight, I ponder if the family appreciated the financial sacrifice I made for them. That said, if anything had happened to them, I would have felt responsible for moving them to an unsafe area and told them to 'deal with it'.

 

[Kevatc]

Here is an email sent from John Farnam...with some valuable lessons for all of to ponder:
(2) Don't arbitrarily divide your life into "safe" and "dangerous" parts, places, nor activities. Fate may neglect to celebrate your dear fantasy!
I know people who have CCW-permits, but don't carry, and they're ever-ready to treat me to a nauseating dissertation of their idiotic excuses. The foregoing exposes the lethal fallacy of such self-deceptive thinking.

My nauseating dissertation of an idiotic excuse for why I don't carry 24/7 is the fact I work at a public school. I could carry but I would lose my job. No matter how you feel about CCW'ing all the time it's not a one size fits all. I don't have the money to litigate the issue, legal precedent has been set (not in favor of a public school employee, Medford case), and unemployment would not afford me the additional income to continue to train. In my particular instance I have to pick and choose when I CCW.

 

[theficklefinger]

It's silly to assume you need a gun, all the time, every where. It's so myopic in threat assessment it's hardly worth debating. Take the individual that thinks a CCW is the be all end all to all encounters and they are completely, strategically stumped on that trip to CA or HI for a vacation. Their gun being the the solution to all problems. It's beyond silly.

I will say it again. For the people that honestly feel they need a gun on them 24/7 they should assess a new place to live where the need is less prevalent. If their 'argument' is that a need for a gun can break out at anytime, anywhere, like a Virgina Tech shooter scenario...then stay at home, work from the house, live in the country. Honestly, it's a pain to carry a gun, I don't think it's fun or cool. I've had a CCW for 20 years in a area where I hardly need it...but if you can show me a better way to head to the range or drive around town with a gun to buy ammo legally I would like to hear it.

It's funny, but in the places where I would most want a gun...CA, NY etc, you can't carry one. Ironic, I think.

 

[pokerace]

Thanks for the info. I have a CCW but only carry maybe once a month when i don't feel safe. I think I will carry more often, but how do you carry when you go jogging? A bouncing gun on gym shorts does not seem safe to me, maybe you can elaborate on how to effectivly and safely do this so we can all benefit.

Use a fanny pack.I know some people say it screams GUN but not so much when jogging as most people have a c phone,and a i pod. Whean at work get a small 380 and stick it a pocket.
people do not see such guns..

 

[Riot]

In the interest of furthering a rational discussion, I think it's really silly to argue the veracity of an incident like this for one simple reason.

The probability of the most heinous possible thing you can imagine happening to people, in a world of 7 billion people is by all probability happening right now.

Technically I could sit here and fabricate horrible story after story, and another forum member could all but search the internet for a similar real life incident where it actually happened.

That said, what I get out of this scenario, like others I have heard on the East Coast is that some people live in crappy areas. Read up on the supreme court justices getting jacked jogging in DC, or the latest down in the West Indies.

So question where you live, the threat level, with my advice, that if you really need to wear a gun as more then a 'what if' you might consider just living somewhere else. I am pretty sure that couple in the hospital are reevaluating right now their career and real estate choice, much like a few people that moved to New York, couldn't own a gun and got beat up and robbed just down the street from where live.

Acceptance of this behavior where 'just give them your money' and you will be ok, is 'sheeple thinking at best' not to mention completely humiliating in ones acceptance in their inability to protect themselves and some twisted sense of security and trust in a the crooks and system that they won't 'really get hurt, just robbed'.

I could have taken any number of high paying jobs in high crime areas, that would have been fine for me, but less safe for the family...in hindsight, I ponder if the family appreciated the financial sacrifice I made for them. That said, if anything had happened to them, I would have felt responsible for moving them to an unsafe area and told them to 'deal with it'.

So while most on here have posted "I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it" you are of the mindset to keep moving? I'm with you- to a point. If you live in California and would like some neat-o WASR-10 but can't get one due to their gun laws and your Governor doesn't give two craps about your stance on the 2nd Amendment then by all means MOVE! But we face an ever changing society with an ever evolving criminal mind. True, crimes like the above are rare but you even stated that you could google away and find dozen more examples of similar crimes.

To be clear, I am of the opinion that I would rather run than fight. Nevertheless, you suggest that if people don't like where they live due to the crime they should just tough it out than carry a firearm? I disagree. We're not talking about a dude deciding to go down a dark alley looking for cans at 0200am, we're talking about a couple that went jogging at a park, had CCW permits but decided not to carry and thus became victims. Their decision to not carry was their demise and hence the discussion.

 

[Riot]

It's silly to assume you need a gun, all the time, every where.

It's silly to assume that you can predict when and where you will be when you will need a firearm.

It's so myopic in threat assessment it's hardly worth debating. Take the individual that thinks a CCW is the be all end all to all encounters and they are completely, strategically stumped on that trip to CA or HI for a vacation.

As you say you assess the risk vs reward. I had to ask myself if it was worth the risk of becoming a victim in HI for my vacation (did you know you need the local sheriff's aproval to carry OC pepper spray?) so I decided to go on a cruise.

Their gun being the the solution to all problems. It's beyond silly.

If you decide to go on a vacation in Somalia- then wind up getting your head cut off you are a moron, plain and simple. If you own a pistol but refuse to carry it because you don't think you will need it then you are, again, a moron.

I will say it again. For the people that honestly feel they need a gun on them 24/7 they should assess a new place to live where the need is less prevalent.

Nobody here is saying you need a gun 24/7. Everyone is saying you cannot predict when you will need the firearm, thus it is best you carry as much as possible because you never know when or where you will need it. As Gabriel Suarez suggests (read <broken link removed> ) you should always have a firearm within reach. This is having a "tactical mindset"- something I guess you are against.

If their 'argument' is that a need for a gun can break out at anytime, anywhere, like a Virgina Tech shooter scenario...then stay at home, work from the house, live in the country. Honestly, it's a pain to carry a gun, I don't think it's fun or cool. I've had a CCW for 20 years in a area where I hardly need it...but if you can show me a better way to head to the range or drive around town with a gun to buy ammo legally I would like to hear it.

It's funny, but in the places where I would most want a gun...CA, NY etc, you can't carry one. Ironic, I think.

Living in constant fear is no way to live. True- if you don't like where you should live you should move....nobody is arguing with this logic. But you shouldn't have to move...but then again you shouldn't have to wear a gun. But just like there is a first aid kit in my car there is a gun always nearby. Not because I want to use it, not because I think I will need it but because if I do need it I will want it...and I will never know when I will need it, therefore I should always have it nearby.