Recent Attack: Lessons Learned

[eriknemily]

Dan has always posted some very well thought out subjects, that are both thought provoking and makes oneself take stock of themselves.

Take it for what it is, hopefully learn some things and move on with your training. But there's no need to take exception with a person who's life it is to train others to protect themselves, especially when he focuses on the very thing that may have saved some lives in this instance.

Us instructors are very passionate about what we do, and the content we teach. Will it offend some?....yep. But if it gives the tools needed to keep someone alive, then it's all worth it.

It amazes me when someone posts something for everyone to learn from, there has to be the usual internet dribble..........as noted below.

Wichaka,

I agree with the point you're making but as you can see with the emphasis I added, 'us' is incorrect grammar. It should be 'we'.
Sorry. I just couldn't resist.

 

[eriknemily]

Also, can anyone elaborate on what a VCA is? Most of these cute, short-hand things come to me but this one has chosen to evade. Thanks in advance.

 

[OFADAN]

VCA - Violent Criminal Actor...to put it into context a VCA is one who uses or has the capacity & willingness to use violence in order to act out his/her's criminal activities/behavior and/or to stay out of jail.

 

[Redrum]

The fact of whether the attacks were random or not is actually quite relevant. Fact is, most people are going to be perfectly safe (as safe as anyone really can be) during there daily activities. If these two were attacked because of their involvement in something then the attack has no bearing on the safety of the every day individual going about their every day lives. If it is not random they placed themselves willingly into greater jeopardy through their own behavior.

Even if it is random, you still have to consider the odds and cannot use a rare event to justify an entire rationale. If you did that you could do the same thing and say a person should never carry a firearm because of the one or two people that cause accidental harm to themselves or others by carrying a firearm.

My own personal choice is to always carry, but I cannot logically force that opinion onto others because the facts do not back up the likelihood of them every needing to be armed. I will not create misleading statistics or use scare tactics to promote my own opinion either. That is what the antis do and I will not stoop to their level. My position will always be that you will most likely be safe whether you carry a gun or not, but what is the harm in being prepared for any scenario...no matter how unlikely when you life or the life of a loved one can be at stake? As long as you do not allow that preparedness become an obsession that affects your life in a negative way.

I have always found I win more arguments with the plain and simple presentation of the fact that you will probably never need a gun but what is the harm in being prepared than I do by trying to scare people with grizzly scenarios that they know will probably never happen to them.

I respectfully 100% disagree with you

carrying a gun does not make you safe..just like carrying a calculator doesnt make you smart...A gun is a tool..it happens to be the one tool that makes all men (and women) equal.

If you choose to divide your life into whats safe and what isnt..thats your business and your right to do that..however history is full of examples of the faultyness of that way of thinking...these examples are not scare tactics..they are not created to inflame or win arguements..they happen..they are examples...you can learn from them or you can blow them off..

If you teach people "dont worry about that..the odds of it happening are astronomical"..you are doing them a great disservice.

The reality of life is there is nothing "random" when it comes to violent crime.. a mugging in a park is not "random"..a robbery in a parking lot is not a "random" event...a disgruntled co-worker does not just randomly come to work and start shooting people..banks are not "randomly" robbed...houses are not "randomly" burglarized or "home invaded"

violent crimes are planned events with specific targets..sometimes the target is a location..sometimes the target is a person.

A lion on the hunt does not just randomly attack attack a herd of zebra..it picks out one that looks the easiest to kill and goes after it.

criminals are the same way...the jogging example was no different..they were targeted..for what reason we may never know and it doesnt matter.

If you want to use the jogger story as an example..if you happend to jogging on the same trail and come around the corner just as they kill these 2 people..what do you think is gonna happen to you since you just witnessed a double homicide and can identify the attackers? that attack now has direct bearing on your personel safety..if you are not prepared to defend yourself when you go jogging because in your mind you have called jogging a "safe zone" thats great...but are the guys with the bats gonna be like "oh this is his safe zone..we have to let him go" ??? I think not..chances are your gonna be bat victim #3

"Random" is a word used by the press to rationalize the goverments lack of ability to protect the individual...and by the "sheeple" to discount personel responsibility and lack of preparedness in a situation. they both try to justify it by calling it a random event.."there was nothing we could do..it was random!" when that is the farthest thing from the truth.

of every person I've ever taken a report from who had just been robbed, raped, beated or shot..I never met one yet who said "I knew this was gonna happen to me" they all say "I cant believe this happened to me".."these things arent supposed to happen"

and yet to a person..everyone I've ever talked to who had stopped/avoided/prevented a violent crime from occurring..each of them always starts with "I knew something wasn't right"..."I could tell something was up" "I knew I had to do this..." " I had a plan"

Prepare for the worst..hope for the best and meet somewhere in the middle

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Actually I will disagree with you completely. Most such crimes are random. Victims are not chosen in advance. These crimes are crimes of opportunity. Muggers do not seek out specific individuals, they seek out specific locations and circumstances.

The main point is still that you are not that likely to ever need a gun. Those are the facts. Look at how many people you know that has actually ever had to use a firearm in their daily life. It is such a small number.

Using examples of people being killed and then saying "this could happen to you" is indeed scare tactics. You can call it whatever you like but that does not change that fact. And it is not an effective way to promote firearms usage. It is like telling you kids to not do drugs or they could die the first time they try them. Once they realize how unlikely that really is, your whole message is invalidated. If you start implying to rational people that if they do not carry a gun they will get murdered, you are going to come across as a paranoid extremist.

The truth is that carrying a firearm is way down the list of ways to protect yourself. Having a dog or an alarm system is a greater deterrent to burglary than having a gun. Avoiding certain areas and being aware of your surrounding is a better way to protect yourself from being mugged than having a gun. To try and promote gun usage without addressing these facts first is disingenuous.

And another thing, as an ex-LEO myself I can tell you that falling into the mindset of thinking our experiences can be used to validate such opinions is extremely faulty. That is like saying a nurse that works at a VD clinic is correct in assuming everyone they meet is at great risk of contracting syphilis based on the fact that she sees such a high percentage of people in her daily interactions that have the disease. Her perspective is skewed and situational...and not a fair representation of real life circumstances.

 

[Redrum]

Actually I will disagree with you completely. Most such crimes are random. Victims are not chosen in advance. These crimes are crimes of opportunity. Muggers do not seek out specific individuals, they seek out specific locations and circumstances.

you make no sense..how can you define "random" by using the word "specific" to define it..if the mugger seeks out a specific location then its not a random act..if he waits for a specific set of circumstances to occur then its not random.

The victim is choosen because he/she fits a mold the criminal has set that increases his level of success without endangering himself..thats not random..thats called planning and then waiting for the right opportunity is also not random..thats why 30 different people can walk thru a parking garage past some turd and he does nothing but stand there smoking a cigarette..but when the 60 year old lady comes out, alone, carrying a bunch of packages and walks behind the van..he goes into action, knocks her down and grabs her purse..

he chose the location. he waited for what fit his victim profile..he waited for the right time...there is absolutly nothing random about it.

sometimes turds screw up and pick the wrong victim..that would be when the 60 year lady pulls out her gun and gives him a third eye.

Its also what gets turds caught. Because most turds are lazy and end up stealing too many purses from 60 year old ladies in parking garages..which lets the cops figure out his criminal patttern, or what is commomly called his Motis Operandi. Thats latin for "mode of operation". Its a common term taught in every college criminal justice 101 class and any basic investigation class in any police academy..which also happens to blow any theory of "random" crime right out the window.

 

[SheepDog223]

The main point is still that you are not that likely to ever need a gun. Those are the facts. Look at how many people you know that has actually ever had to use a firearm in their daily life. It is such a small number.QUOTE]

This is true. It is also true that I will likely never need my smoke detector, fire extinguisher, fire/flood insurance, AAA, or my extended warenty, but it only takes once to make all these things look like a wise choice. These examples are small compared to the protection of life.

The truth is that carrying a firearm is way down the list of ways to protect yourself. Having a dog or an alarm system is a greater deterrent to burglary than having a gun.QUOTE]

I don't know... When the dog barks, bad guys run away. When the gun barks, bad guys run away faster.

Avoiding certain areas and being aware of your surrounding is a better way to protect yourself from being mugged than having a gun.QUOTE]

Like not going to church, the mall, the coffee shop, or a school?

And another thing, as an ex-LEO myself I can tell you that falling into the mindset of thinking our experiences can be used to validate such opinions is extremely faulty.QUOTE]

Because people are less likely to break the law infront of a LEO. I am not a LEO and I'll bet that I see more traffic violations and other than they do.

 

[geoffap]

Thanks OFADAN for bring this to our attention and putting it in the context of preparedness.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best should apply to all aspects of life.....I always wear my seatbelt in a vehicle and I've never been in an accident where it was necessary......I can't defend against every threat I may encounter.....But I can defend against the most likely threats......Carrying a concealed weapon just like wearing my seatbelt help prepare me for unexpected events......Safety belts don't save you if you are crushed in a car and a concealed weapon won't save you if you are jumped by multiple attackers (unless you are very very lucky or very very good)......But most of the time people don't get crushed in their cars and most people don't get jumped by multipe attackers.

Where I live it will take a minimum of 15 minutes (if we are super lucky) up to 1 hour or more for help (fire, ambulance, police or sherrif's) to arrive at our home......I just moved into this home last September and realized during the snowstorms when the power went out how alone we were......During 4 days and nights without power I decided to take action.

1. We installed an alarm system with every door and window covered in addition to motion and sound sensors.......we have camera's at every corner that record 24/7.
2. I knocked down a fire perimeter so during the summer months I can avoid a fire that could come up the canyon were perched near the edge of.
3. My wife and I both got our CCW permits and each of us have an XD-40 with Crimson Trace grips and Procyon XTI lights for our bedside guns......We also each have Rohrbaugh R9S's for concealed carry....."Pairing" guns makes it so that each of us can competently use the other's weapons without thinking if the need should arise.
4. 12 gauge shotguns that are set up for home defense use......3 Benelli M4's, a Remington 870 Marine, Mossberg 590 Mariner all with lasers, lights, Eotech's, Knoxx spec opp's stocks, shure shell carriers......Grab and go guns stashed throughout each floor of the home.
5. We have a fire escape plan for each floor, a plan for break in's if we're both home or just one of us is home with the kids.
6. My wife and I both took first aid /CPR training to get current.

Next on my list are:
7. AED ....chances are my sorry behind will be the one that need my heart jump started.
8. Self defense training to prepare for the kind of situations these joggers encoutered.
9. Back up generator for those outages like we had this winter.
10. Saferoom.

The odd's are I will use my generator for power outages and never use my guns for self defense......And it is also likely that the only people that will ever set off our alarm system are my family members.

Here's what it boils down to for me......With knowledge comes responsibiity.......I don't think I could live with the regret I would feel if any of my family members were hurt or killed and I could have been prepared and possibly prevented it but had failed to do so.......In the military I think that is the same as "dereliction of duty".

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

you make no sense..how can you define "random" by using the word "specific" to define it..if the mugger seeks out a specific location then its not a random act..if he waits for a specific set of circumstances to occur then its not random.

For the victim, the attack is random. It has nothing to do with them other than the fact they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. They are not specifically targeted. No more than a spider targets a specific fly when it builds it's web.

"random...adjective...Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen."

 

[Trlsmn]

For the victim, the attack is random. It has nothing to do with them other than the fact they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. They are not specifically targeted. No more than a spider targets a specific fly when it builds it's web.

"random...adjective...Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen."

Random could be an adverb too!

The above was an example of arguing the minutiae of the irrelevant! This back seat quarterbacking could go on forever, to what end I have no clue, but I am among the clueless.

 

[SheepDog223]

Thanks OFADAN for bring this to our attention and putting it in the context of preparedness.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best should apply to all aspects of life.....I always wear my seatbelt in a vehicle and I've never been in an accident where it was necessary......I can't defend against every threat I may encounter.....But I can defend against the most likely threats......Carrying a concealed weapon just like wearing my seatbelt help prepare me for unexpected events......Safety belts don't save you if you are crushed in a car and a concealed weapon won't save you if you are jumped by multiple attackers (unless you are very very lucky or very very good)......But most of the time people don't get crushed in their cars and most people don't get jumped by multipe attackers.

Where I live it will take a minimum of 15 minutes (if we are super lucky) up to 1 hour or more for help (fire, ambulance, police or sherrif's) to arrive at our home......I just moved into this home last September and realized during the snowstorms when the power went out how alone we were......During 4 days and nights without power I decided to take action.

1. We installed an alarm system with every door and window covered in addition to motion and sound sensors.......we have camera's at every corner that record 24/7.
2. I knocked down a fire perimeter so during the summer months I can avoid a fire that could come up the canyon were perched near the edge of.
3. My wife and I both got our CCW permits and each of us have an XD-40 with Crimson Trace grips and Procyon XTI lights for our bedside guns......We also each have Rohrbaugh R9S's for concealed carry....."Pairing" guns makes it so that each of us can competently use the other's weapons without thinking if the need should arise.
4. 12 gauge shotguns that are set up for home defense use......3 Benelli M4's, a Remington 870 Marine, Mossberg 590 Mariner all with lasers, lights, Eotech's, Knoxx spec opp's stocks, shure shell carriers......Grab and go guns stashed throughout each floor of the home.
5. We have a fire escape plan for each floor, a plan for break in's if we're both home or just one of us is home with the kids.
6. My wife and I both took first aid /CPR training to get current.

Next on my list are:
7. AED ....chances are my sorry behind will be the one that need my heart jump started.
8. Self defense training to prepare for the kind of situations these joggers encoutered.
9. Back up generator for those outages like we had this winter.
10. Saferoom.

The odd's are I will use my generator for power outages and never use my guns for self defense......And it is also likely that the only people that will ever set off our alarm system are my family members.

Here's what it boils down to for me......With knowledge comes responsibiity.......I don't think I could live with the regret I would feel if any of my family members were hurt or killed and I could have been prepared and possibly prevented it but had failed to do so.......In the military I think that is the same as "dereliction of duty".

Wow! Can I adopt you as my grandpa? ha ha ha

 

[geoffap]

Wow! Can I adopt you as my grandpa? ha ha ha

Not sure I could afford anymore kinfolk.....18 year old son attending UofO on an Army ROTC scholarship, a 1 year old daugther and one on the way.

 

[ARclint]

A kel-tec or P-22 will fit in a large i-pod case. An emerson clips nicely to the outside of it as well.

Unfortunately attacks dont happen when its most convienant for the mark.

Preparedness is a way of life, not a hobby.
Thanks for posting this.

 

[Redrum]

For the victim, the attack is random. It has nothing to do with them other than the fact they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. They are not specifically targeted. No more than a spider targets a specific fly when it builds it's web.

"random...adjective...Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen."

your changing your position and your still wrong..first it was "crimes are random" now its "victims are chosen at random"...it doesnt matter, because its all false. Your own definition proves your wrong on both.

From your picture you appear to be an average, middle aged, white, male, adult in good health..answer the following to yourself...have you ever been sexually assaulted? Do you know ANY other middle aged white male adults like yourself that have been the victim of a violent sex crime?

H#%L...I'm willing to bet almost no middle aged white man on this board has been the victim of even a non violent person to person crime, let alone a violent or sex related one.

If crimes really are random. If victims really are chosen randomly as you say. Then based on your own defintion of random, there should be an equal number of male victims of violent crime as women victims, relative to the crime rate of a given population. Because our population is roughly 50/50 male to female, then half of the crime victims should be female and half should be male.

from 1973-1995 it wasnt

http://books.google.com/books?id=vb...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA816,M1

not much different in 2005-2007

http://www.nsvrc.org/news/press-releases/1285


Why are they not equal? Because crimes are not random and victims are not chosen randomly.

John Wayne Gacy killed teenage boys

Ted Bundy prefered blonde college age girls

John Dillinger only robbed banks

The Green River killer only killed female prostitutes

Honda Accords are the most stolen cars in the US.. 4-1 over other makes of cars

the list goes on and on....

sex, age, race, location, time, motive, reward, effort... they all play a major factor in a criminal act, for the criminal and the victim..and there is nothing random about it.


I am done on this topic

 

[BUZO71]

Thanks for the story and Sheepdog thanks for the hydration pack info, my feeble little brain somehow passed over that(probably because I don't yet own one). I usually do some light jogging after work once summer rolls around. I am a fair weather excerciser lol.

A few years ago, I worked with Dakine in the Gorge on a hydro pack with a concealed holster pocket. Our bike team members got them. I still have mine somewhere. Anyway, you might talk with them to see if they were making any more. I know a few other teams were interested.

 

[Weathermaker]

Dan has always posted some very well thought out subjects, that are both thought provoking and makes oneself take stock of themselves.

Take it for what it is, hopefully learn some things and move on with your training. But there's no need to take exception with a person who's life it is to train others to protect themselves, especially when he focuses on the very thing that may have saved some lives in this instance.

Us instructors are very passionate about what we do, and the content we teach. Will it offend some?....yep. But if it gives the tools needed to keep someone alive, then it's all worth it.

It amazes me when someone posts something for everyone to learn from, there has to be the usual internet dribble..........as noted below.

Just change the subject from a 'lightbulb', and you get the idea..........

How to change a light bulb using an internet forum

It takes -

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs

53 to flame the spell checkers

41 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb"

6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"

15 know-it-alls who claim *they* were in the industry, and that "light bulb"
is perfectly correct

156 to email the participant's ISPs complaining that they are in violation
of their "acceptable use policy"

109 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this
discussion to a lightbulb forum

203 to demand that cross posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum, and
lightbulb forum about changing light bulbs be stopped

111 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs
and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this forum

306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty

27 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the
corrected URL's

3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this
group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group

33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all
headers and signatures, and add "Me too"

12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot
handle the whole light bulb controversy

19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three"

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ

44 to ask what is a "FAQ"

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

143 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again

This is about the best retort I've read on any forum. Good job.

 

[tionico]

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again
This is about the best retort I've read on any forum. Good job.

so hey, what's THIS response doing here so soon? It ain't been six muntz since dis startid

 

[chopped&bobbedburb]

The world is a dangerous place . It's sad that those who know this to be true and have the training to carry a handgun choose at some point not to carry and are attacked and hurt or worse !! It's just senceless . I come from a law inforcement family and Have served 4 years in the army w/ 2 in another country . I've seen and heard of all the bad things that can happen and none of them are random act's .

I choose to carry at all times and at very minimum I'll be carrying a good knife and a small pistol . Not only for my saftey but for those that are around me . You can either be a positive force in this world or a negitive one . I choose to be the positive one and exccept how things are in this world and plan accordingly

The most horrible feeling in the world has to be one of having the ability to save your own life or those that are around you but Now you can't because you left your " ability " at home in the safe because you thought you didn't need it . That's a big burden to carry around for the rest of your life BUT then again if you die you won't be able to think about it . But the rest of us will read about it and it will reafirm our resolve to never have to go through that .

You bought a gun so carry the dang thing

 

[Trlsmn]

The world is a dangerous place . It's sad that those who know this to be true and have the training to carry a handgun choose at some point not to carry and are attacked and hurt or worse !! It's just senceless . I come from a law inforcement family and Have served 4 years in the army w/ 2 in another country . I've seen and heard of all the bad things that can happen and none of them are random act's .

I choose to carry at all times and at very minimum I'll be carrying a good knife and a small pistol . Not only for my saftey but for those that are around me . You can either be a positive force in this world or a negitive one . I choose to be the positive one and exccept how things are in this world and plan accordingly

The most horrible feeling in the world has to be one of having the ability to save your own life or those that are around you but Now you can't because you left your " ability " at home in the safe because you thought you didn't need it . That's a big burden to carry around for the rest of your life BUT then again if you die you won't be able to think about it . But the rest of us will read about it and it will reafirm our resolve to never have to go through that .

You bought a gun so carry the dang thing

That's are my definition of a realist.

 

[Moobear]

OFADAN, thanks for the post. As a fellow CCW I am at fault of the above. I do carry most of the time, however I do find times where I become complacent at times. I do not carry at work, however due to clothing and dress I find it impossible to conceal a weapon as I normally do when i'm off work. I normally carry IWB on my own time but body type and having to tuck my work shirt in makes that difficult to conceal. What do you recommend for this instance. Would a small "backup" revolver be an acceptable carry option as an ankle carry piece? What are your thoughts. I have tried a Galco holster that a friend has that says you can where with a tucked in shirt however my body type does not allow for this to not show.

Thanks for your wisdom!

Kai

Have you tried a pocket holster?