Recent Attack: Lessons Learned

[PlayboyPenguin]

but how do you carry when you go jogging?

I carry when running, walking, or exercising. I keep my Kahr CW9 inside a fanny pack while I am doing it.

 

[AOTAC]

First of all, no one said OFADAN shouldn't post his stories.

Secondly, I deserve no apology from you, OFADAN. You did nothing wrong. Thank you for posting the links. If you've been around the internet as much as I have, you know that to treat everything you read as fact is a fools reality. At least we now know the event took place on planet earth and not in someone's imagination.

Playboy. That fanny pack is much nicer than the one I had in the eighty's... even if it's not hot pink.

To clarify my earlier post, I took offense to one of Johns comments. Perhaps I read more into it than I should have but this has been building up for a while now. The time is ripe but not the place. Here goes:

http://www.northwestfirearms.com/forum/showthread.php?p=47368#post47368

 

[RallySoob]

OFADAN,

Thanks for the links. From what I am reading I am betting there is nothing random about this attack at all. I know my investigative skills are rusty, it has been awhile since my CID days, but this smells a bit fishy to me. This case would definitely set off all the red flags for anyone investigating it. For this to be random, it would have to be a very rare thing.

Side note: I always carry my CCW. At least as close to always as possible. I have left the house and forgotten it one or two times. I even left the house with an unloaded gun in my holster one time. Every time someone does a poll on how many people always carry their weapon the number of people that say they do comes in very high, but I always wonder how realistic those numbers really are.

If there is gang activity close to the area I would guess it could possibly be a gang initiation or something similar. Not sure what the extant of his job with the CIA was but my other guess would be that he knew too much about something but that's farfetched for a lot of people to believe, like JFK. (even though he was offed 2wks after his tell all speech)

regardless, thanks for posting up the story. I prefer the refresher in vigilance.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

If there is gang activity close to the area I would guess it could possibly be a gang initiation or something similar. Not sure what the extant of his job with the CIA was but my other guess would be that he knew too much about something but that's farfetched for a lot of people to believe, like JFK. (even though he was offed 2wks after his tell all speech)

regardless, thanks for posting up the story. I prefer the refresher in vigilance.

Well, to be honest, my first focus in the investigation would be to determine the involvement of the victims in the organized illegal drug business. Having past CIA connections really increases the likelihood of him being involved in drug trafficing or other fencing related aspects of organized crime.

Gang initiations do not usually involve such random target s in such remote areas. They tend to play out on bigger stages, so as to involve more risk and exposure, or involve very specific targets.

 

[wichaka]

Dan has always posted some very well thought out subjects, that are both thought provoking and makes oneself take stock of themselves.

Take it for what it is, hopefully learn some things and move on with your training. But there's no need to take exception with a person who's life it is to train others to protect themselves, especially when he focuses on the very thing that may have saved some lives in this instance.

Us instructors are very passionate about what we do, and the content we teach. Will it offend some?....yep. But if it gives the tools needed to keep someone alive, then it's all worth it.

It amazes me when someone posts something for everyone to learn from, there has to be the usual internet dribble..........as noted below.

Just change the subject from a 'lightbulb', and you get the idea..........

How to change a light bulb using an internet forum

It takes -

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs

53 to flame the spell checkers

41 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb"

6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"

15 know-it-alls who claim *they* were in the industry, and that "light bulb"
is perfectly correct

156 to email the participant's ISPs complaining that they are in violation
of their "acceptable use policy"

109 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this
discussion to a lightbulb forum

203 to demand that cross posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum, and
lightbulb forum about changing light bulbs be stopped

111 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs
and therefore the posts *are* relevant to this forum

306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty

27 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the
corrected URL's

3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this
group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group

33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all
headers and signatures, and add "Me too"

12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot
handle the whole light bulb controversy

19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three"

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ

44 to ask what is a "FAQ"

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

143 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again

 

[RallySoob]

Gang initiations do not usually involve such random target s in such remote areas. They tend to play out on bigger stages, so as to involve more risk and exposure, or involve very specific targets.

True for the most part but I was thinking along the lines of a gang wanting to hurt someone of good standing or atleast that appears to be thus they could be trolling the nicer neighborhoods looking for victims and the they came across these poor folks.

Either way, they would still be alive had they been carrying and that's the point...

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

True for the most part but I was thinking along the lines of a gang wanting to hurt someone of good standing or atleast that appears to be thus they could be trolling the nicer neighborhoods looking for victims and the they came across these poor folks.

Either way, they would still be alive had they been carrying and that's the point...

maybe and maybe not. If, as I suspect, this was a very specific attack they would probably still be dead. Once someone with any skill decides you are going to be dead, you usually have very little say in the matter. You cannot watch the back of your head at all times.

 

[AOTAC]

The whole white panel van/ random gangbanger match-up seems all wrong, but obviously, any leads should be taken seriously. I'll be curious to hear more info on the case as it comes out. Also interested about how they got the drop on the couple. Please let me know of any updates to the story. I dont get the VA weekly here.

 

[CharlesAFerg]

Well, to be honest, my first focus in the investigation would be to determine the involvement of the victims in the organized illegal drug business.

Your first focus?
Perhaps the victims had a nice car they drove to the location with on a regular basis, and these guys scoped them out for a few weeks beforehand.
Still, though, that wouldn't be my first focus. I think you should figure that out after you capture the people who have already committed a crime, not the reverse, don't you think?

 

[Trlsmn]

What is the source of this story again? What information do we have to back it up? It kind of seems like an internet fairy tale to me until I see some colaberating evidence.

+1 please don't take this as an attack on your credibility, but these things should always be linked to a main stream news article. I know that you did post one afterwords but it will take some of the internet credibility doubt out of your readers minds.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Your first focus?
Perhaps the victims had a nice car they drove to the location with on a regular basis, and these guys scoped them out for a few weeks beforehand.
Still, though, that wouldn't be my first focus. I think you should figure that out after you capture the people who have already committed a crime, not the reverse, don't you think?

No, not at all. In fact it might be very hard to find the people that did commit the crime so the first thing you would do is establish motive. The fact that the attackers were in a van and that the victims were on foot would almost instantly rule out car jacking.

Cases of random attacks of this nature are so rare as to be almost non-existent. One thing that always exists is motive. You have to determine what the attackers had to gain from the attack. It is almost always one of two things...items of monetary value or revenge.

Since the victims were not in their home, not driving a car, and probably not loaded down with cash or jewelry (since they were jogging) the most likely motive is revenge. Revenge can include everything from an angry family member to a criminal connection.

The white panel van indicates that it is most likely the later...or a very meticulous friend or relative that has been planning this for awhile (but even that is unlikely since there is most likely more than one assailant). Who owns white panel vans for personal use? It is most likely a rental procured with a fake ID and credit card. That is if the reports of the van are accurate. This could just be a case of witnesses seeing too many episodes of CSI or mistaking a work van that was in the area for being involved when it was not.

 

[Trlsmn]

No, not at all. In fact it might be very hard to find the people that did commit the crime so the first thing you would do is establish motive. The fact that the attackers were in a van and that the victims were on foot would almost instantly rule out car jacking.

Cases of random attacks of this nature are so rare as to be almost non-existent. One thing that always exists is motive. You have to determine what the attackers had to gain from the attack. It is almost always one of two things...items of monetary value or revenge.

Since the victims were not in their home, not driving a car, and probably not loaded down with cash or jewelry (since they were jogging) the most likely motive is revenge. Revenge can include everything from an angry family member to a criminal connection.

The white panel van indicates that it is most likely the later...or a very meticulous friend or relative that has been planning this for awhile (but even that is unlikely since there is most likely more than one assailant). Who owns white panel vans for personal use? It is most likely a rental procured with a fake ID and credit card. That is if the reports of the van are accurate. This could just be a case of witnesses seeing too many episodes of CSI or mistaking a work van that was in the area for being involved when it was not.

CSI is right, and someones watching too much of it! Criminals don't obtain false ID's and credit cards to rent vehicles to commit crimes, if they were that sophisticated they would spend there efforts on making money with identification theft crimes, not murder. If A thief needs an untraceable vehicle it will be stolen.

 

[SheepDog223]

Isn't each and every case individual and specific? How can a bunch of guys who only got a wiff of the facts be talking with this much authority on the matter? How many people in here are detectives? criminal psyc's? crime ring hit men?

 

[AOTAC]

Isn't each and every case individual and specific? How can a bunch of guys who only got a wiff of the facts be talking with this much authority on the matter? How many people in here are detectives? criminal psyc's? crime ring hit men?

This is a statement of the obvious. I thought the purpose of a forum was the exchange of ideas and information? A police or detective forum may have more credible real-world ideas about this case, but I've studied murder cases for thousands of hours over the course of a lifetime. I've seen it all before and consider myself an expert. My references speak for themselves:

CSI
CSI Miami - Horatio is my hero
Unsolved Mysteries
Throw Mama From the Train
Cops
Matlock
Cold Case
Perry Mason
Seven
Weekend at Bernies

... you get the idea.

 

[Trlsmn]

Isn't each and every case individual and specific? How can a bunch of guys who only got a wiff of the facts be talking with this much authority on the matter? How many people in here are detectives? criminal psyc's? crime ring hit men?

So true.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

CSI is right, and someones watching too much of it! Criminals don't obtain false ID's and credit cards to rent vehicles to commit crimes, if they were that sophisticated they would spend there efforts on making money with identification theft crimes, not murder. If A thief needs an untraceable vehicle it will be stolen.

Actually, drug dealers do just that. One of the big problems in Texas was drug dealers renting cars with fake ID's and stolen credit card information and then deserting the cars after shipments were made. That is one of the reasons my first guess would be that the victims had dealings with the attackers and that the attackers are not random hoods.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Isn't each and every case individual and specific? How can a bunch of guys who only got a wiff of the facts be talking with this much authority on the matter? How many people in here are detectives? criminal psyc's? crime ring hit men?

Because that is how criminal investigations work. You have to start with almost nothing and then create a wide field of scenarios, starting with the most likely ones and working out to the most unlikely ones, and then start elimination them one by one. Police work is mostly working backwards and eliminating suspects more than it is following clues and identifying them. They don't really find a cigarette butt on the scene and get a chemical composition done on it to reveal the type of chapstick the person was wearing, then use the specific chemical balance of that particular shipment to trace where the chapstick was sold, then go through video surveillance tapes to find an image of an old army buddy of the victim. Like I said before...too much CSI.

 

[Trlsmn]

Actually, drug dealers do just that. One of the big problems in Texas was drug dealers renting cars with fake ID's and stolen credit card information and then deserting the cars after shipments were made. That is one of the reasons my first guess would be that the victims had dealings with the attackers and that the attackers are not random hoods.

That answer is subjective not objective.

 

[Redrum]

you guys are focusing on the trees and missing the forest..whether the attack was random or planned is irrelavent. The point of Mr Farnum's e-mail is:

Don't arbitrarily divide your life into "safe" and "dangerous" parts, places, nor activities. Fate may neglect to celebrate your dear fantasy!

you cannot control the time or place you might need a firearm to save your or someone elses life...you can only control whether or not you have one when the time comes.

I would highly recommned that people go back and read all of John's quotes and quips..theres a ton of really useful information there...I would also recommend all of his books and everyone of his classes (if theres room to get in)

<broken link removed>

John Farnum is one of the best firearm trainers in the country...his training has saved my life and countless others, so if I sound biased that is why
You will not meet a more humble, aproachable, down to earth, dedicated person who knows more about carrying a gun and is willing to share that information than him.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

you guys are focusing on the trees and missing the forest..whether the attack was random or planned is irrelavent. The point of Mr Farnum's e-mail is:

Don't arbitrarily divide your life into "safe" and "dangerous" parts, places, nor activities. Fate may neglect to celebrate your dear fantasy!

you cannot control the time or place you might need a firearm to save your or someone elses life...you can only control whether or not you have one when the time comes.

The fact of whether the attacks were random or not is actually quite relevant. Fact is, most people are going to be perfectly safe (as safe as anyone really can be) during there daily activities. If these two were attacked because of their involvement in something then the attack has no bearing on the safety of the every day individual going about their every day lives. If it is not random they placed themselves willingly into greater jeopardy through their own behavior.

Even if it is random, you still have to consider the odds and cannot use a rare event to justify an entire rationale. If you did that you could do the same thing and say a person should never carry a firearm because of the one or two people that cause accidental harm to themselves or others by carrying a firearm.

My own personal choice is to always carry, but I cannot logically force that opinion onto others because the facts do not back up the likelihood of them every needing to be armed. I will not create misleading statistics or use scare tactics to promote my own opinion either. That is what the antis do and I will not stoop to their level. My position will always be that you will most likely be safe whether you carry a gun or not, but what is the harm in being prepared for any scenario...no matter how unlikely when you life or the life of a loved one can be at stake? As long as you do not allow that preparedness become an obsession that affects your life in a negative way.

I have always found I win more arguments with the plain and simple presentation of the fact that you will probably never need a gun but what is the harm in being prepared than I do by trying to scare people with grizzly scenarios that they know will probably never happen to them.