Ranger Talon vs Federal HST vs Speer Gold Dot (9mm)

[No_Regerts]

Y'all is getting purty bent about all this, Fact of the matter is; Pistol Bullets do a piss poor job at imitating a rifle, and "Factuals" don't count for much! Another thing to think about very hard here, MOST bullets are only designed for ONE caliber, and then adopted to others, often with less then stellar results, so what one person gets out of his gun, the next guy will not, and then, the target must be the same, which in life, never happens! This is all just pissing in the wind, pick one you can shoot well out of your piece and run with it! There is no such thing as a majik boolit, so do what ya gotta do! Me, I hand load 180 gr Golden Sabers to 1340is FPS out of a 5 in. 10 mm auto, And I don't give a phuck about what folks say about running hand rolled ammo in my defensive pistol!

This is why I will always believe hunters know way more about killing and bullets than anyone. When Nosler released the ballistic tip, it was prone to come apart at high velocity. They basically redesigned the bullet by caliber and sometimes have a couple designs in the same caliber. This way, the bullet provides optimal performance.

 

[Ura-Ki]

This is why I will always believe hunters know way more about killing and bullets than anyone. When Nosler released the ballistic tip, it was prone to come apart at high velocity. They basically redesigned the bullet by caliber and sometimes have a couple designs in the same caliber. This way, the bullet provides optimal performance.

Agreed, with all the fancy latest and greatest wizz bang bullets out there, I have seen more game anchored by the old Remington Cor-Loked then most others combined! They may not be the most surgically accurate, but they still do the job, and a fine job at that! I have had outstanding results with the Swift Scriocco bullets, they fly strait, buck the wind very well, and hit like a sledge hammer!

 

[bobdog]

Any premium HP rd offered By Federal, Winchester, or CCI/Speer will be within a few percentage points of each other in all aspects. They are all designed around the same FBI protocols. Instead of performance look at reliability (they're about the same in this aspect too), you might find that your gun "likes" one design better

 

[SmitKoWitz]

Which one looks like the best expansion? Reason I ask, I'm trying to consolidate and settle on one, sell the rest.

I would also ask myself: which one works the best in my firearm(s) (reliable), is most accurate, and cost effective? Personally, I prefer Speer (reliable, accurate, affordable), Federal (reliable, accurate, a little more costly typically), and Hornady (reliable, accurate, affordable). Winchester (accurate) . . . I've had more issues (reliability) with various calibers and types of Winchester ammo over the years, that any other brand (sadly), and there products similar to Remington, seem to be less affordable per round.

 

[Kruel J]

Based on the gel tests posted earlier I'm considering switching to a heavier projectile now. The penetration performance of my EDC ammo isn't quite what I would like to see.

 

[The Heretic]

Based on the gel tests posted earlier I'm considering switching to a heavier projectile now. The penetration performance of my EDC ammo isn't quite what I would like to see.

In the gel tests I have watched there are a lot of variables.

One thing that I have noticed is that with the same expanding projectile (mass, etc.) the faster you push it, often the less penetration you get. Also, it appears the design of the projectile matters, as does the type of gel (clear v true ballistic gel). One of the tests I like to look at is those in LuckyGunner; their "labs". I have noticed that lighter projectiles often seem to penetrate gel as far as heavier ones, sometimes farther and that there is a difference between different brands and designs.

I have noticed that some projectiles (at least some JSPs) do not expand at all in clear gel, but do expand in water and ballistics gel. This seems to be the case with the SP 7.62 ammo coming from Europe/Russia. At first that kind of turned me off until I came across some vids comparing results in the two different gels - I now believe that the clear gel just isn't dense enough to cause expansion with some bullets. I personally believe that human flesh is mostly more dense than gel.

Beyond gel tests, it is my gut feeling/opinion, that heavier projectiles, especially bonded, will penetrate further when encountering something more substantial than gel or water - such as bone/cartilage. Given the same diameter, more mass equals more sectional density - all else being equal (velocity, design, etc.) more sectional density and more mass (momentum) should theoretically equal more penetration, especially with harder substances - IMO.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

I'm painting with the brush of medical science and mathematical equations, not something based on a few videos or other anecdotal evidence from YouTube. Unless you disable their nervous system or deprive their brain of oxygen via blood loss, they are capable of functioning. That's medical FACT. Watching videos and making opinions based on videos that are contrary to medical science is something you're free to do, but it isn't really scientific or statistically relevant.

You can't watch a few videos and make a determination. Some stopped from nonlethal wounds because of a PSYCHOLOGICAL STOP as I noted. The fact that they were still able to function but didn't MAKES my point for me, they were psychological stops. If you watch 100 videos of non-lethal shots and only 9 of them stopped, guess what, those are psychological stops, not physiological stops. This is where the mathematical aspect comes in. You can't cherry pick a few videos and make the determination. Expected and observed results are different things in statistical math and you can't sample with such a small population and come to a valid conclusion.

If you shoot someone with a 9mm in the stomach and they stop, that doesn't mean it was a physiological stop. 9 other people shot in the same spot would react differently. The point is I don't care if their leg got blown off, they can still mechanically function to shoot you while laying on the ground.

Hence why one Navy SEAL was shot 27 times and was still able to fight, while others would stop at just one shot to the toe. Those stops are psychological. The SEAL is alive because his brain, spine and blood are still in him and unmolested.

The FACT of the matter is that unless you disrupt their CNS or deprive their brain of oxygen via blood loss, they were not physiologically forced to stop, they CHOSE to stop. That is a lot more scientific than what you determined via watching a few videos.

Medical Doctors with 8 years of education on the human anatomy trump what you watched in a few videos...

Newgard, Ken, M.D.: "The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992.

"The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."

So again, I'm talking about medical science and statistical FACTS that are immutable. You're talking about an opinion you formed from statistically irrelevant videos. If anything you made my point, those were psychological stops, not physiological stops....they chose to stop. They could have kept fighting. Hence why someone on PCP can be shot NUMEROUS times and still fight. They don't choose to stop psychologically, they are physiologically able to still function and they do as a result unless you do a CNS hit or bleed them out enough that their brain can't get oxygen, and even then they can still function for 30 seconds. MEDICAL SCIENTIFIC FACT, not a broad brush of opinion formed from videos....

Meh. I would disagree because there are other physiological ways to stop someone. One you missed is pain. Sufficient pain levels can render you unconscious. I would count unconscious as stopped. I have passed out from pain a few times. No details will be provided as they are nightmare fuel that would not be excellent to share. None of them were caused by a human.

Extremity hits can incapacitate. Sever a motor nerve and control of whatever is distal to that will cease. It is something my neuropathy and subsequent issues concern me. That threat could lose limb function which can be Incapacitation. I have seen what a bullet in the area where peripheral nerves leave the spinal cord by the shoulder does.

Unfortunately as my nerves in my legs are damaged or dead I have learned a lot about what can cause a nerve to cease functioning. Other disabling wounds I have seen from a bullet removed the muscle from attachment points. (Most of these gsws I have seen were police shoots, some healed as much as medicine can.)

 

[Warriorpoet]

The three most popular premium JHP rounds. Which one looks like the best expansion? Reason I ask, I'm trying to consolidate and settle on one, sell the rest.

From left to right: Gold Dot, HST, Talon.

View attachment 759367

if its a full size gun, all three are great, if its from a short barrel, independent testing shows again and again, Federal HST is the only one that wont clog and overpenatrate, and still gets proper expansion and penatration from a short barrel. so depends on your gun.