Ranger Talon vs Federal HST vs Speer Gold Dot (9mm)

[Bushman]

I disagree. I've seen plenty of vids where people went down with obvious physiological trauma but no life-threatening hits. It is, afterall, a very traumatic wound regardless of where its is on the body. Extremities can be rendered inoperable, things like lung and gut shots can most definitely drop someone. Hopped up on drugs notwithstanding of course.

You're painting with a fairly broad brush there.

I'm painting with the brush of medical science and mathematical equations, not something based on a few videos or other anecdotal evidence from YouTube. Unless you disable their nervous system or deprive their brain of oxygen via blood loss, they are capable of functioning. That's medical FACT. Watching videos and making opinions based on videos that are contrary to medical science is something you're free to do, but it isn't really scientific or statistically relevant.

You can't watch a few videos and make a determination. Some stopped from nonlethal wounds because of a PSYCHOLOGICAL STOP as I noted. The fact that they were still able to function but didn't MAKES my point for me, they were psychological stops. If you watch 100 videos of non-lethal shots and only 9 of them stopped, guess what, those are psychological stops, not physiological stops. This is where the mathematical aspect comes in. You can't cherry pick a few videos and make the determination. Expected and observed results are different things in statistical math and you can't sample with such a small population and come to a valid conclusion.

If you shoot someone with a 9mm in the stomach and they stop, that doesn't mean it was a physiological stop. 9 other people shot in the same spot would react differently. The point is I don't care if their leg got blown off, they can still mechanically function to shoot you while laying on the ground.

Hence why one Navy SEAL was shot 27 times and was still able to fight, while others would stop at just one shot to the toe. Those stops are psychological. The SEAL is alive because his brain, spine and blood are still in him and unmolested.

The FACT of the matter is that unless you disrupt their CNS or deprive their brain of oxygen via blood loss, they were not physiologically forced to stop, they CHOSE to stop. That is a lot more scientific than what you determined via watching a few videos.

Medical Doctors with 8 years of education on the human anatomy trump what you watched in a few videos...

Newgard, Ken, M.D.: "The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992.

"The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."

So again, I'm talking about medical science and statistical FACTS that are immutable. You're talking about an opinion you formed from statistically irrelevant videos. If anything you made my point, those were psychological stops, not physiological stops....they chose to stop. They could have kept fighting. Hence why someone on PCP can be shot NUMEROUS times and still fight. They don't choose to stop psychologically, they are physiologically able to still function and they do as a result unless you do a CNS hit or bleed them out enough that their brain can't get oxygen, and even then they can still function for 30 seconds. MEDICAL SCIENTIFIC FACT, not a broad brush of opinion formed from videos....

 

[Kruel J]

I'm painting with the brush of medical science and mathematical equations, not something based on a few videos or other anecdotal evidence from YouTube. Unless you disable their nervous system or deprive their brain of oxygen via blood loss, they are capable of functioning. That's medical FACT. Watching videos and making opinions based on videos that are contrary to medical science is something you're free to do, but it isn't really scientific or statistically relevant.

You can't watch a few videos and make a determination. Some stopped from nonlethal wounds because of a PSYCHOLOGICAL STOP as I noted. The fact that they were still able to function but didn't MAKES my point for me, they were psychological stops. If you watch 100 videos of non-lethal shots and only 9 of them stopped, guess what, those are psychological stops, not physiological stops. This is where the mathematical aspect comes in. You can't cherry pick a few videos and make the determination. Expected and observed results are different things in statistical math and you can't sample with such a small population and come to a valid conclusion.

If you shoot someone with a 9mm in the stomach and they stop, that doesn't mean it was a physiological stop. 9 other people shot in the same spot would react differently. The point is I don't care if their leg got blown off, they can still mechanically function to shoot you while laying on the ground.

Hence why one Navy SEAL was shot 27 times and was still able to fight, while others would stop at just one shot to the toe. Those stops are psychological. The SEAL is alive because his brain, spine and blood are still in him and unmolested.

The FACT of the matter is that unless you disrupt their CNS or deprive their brain of oxygen via blood loss, they were not physiologically forced to stop, they CHOSE to stop. That is a lot more scientific than what you determined via watching a few videos.

Medical Doctors with 8 years of education on the human anatomy trump what you watched in a few videos...

Newgard, Ken, M.D.: "The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992.

"The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."

So again, I'm talking about medical science and statistical FACTS that are immutable. You're talking about an opinion you formed from statistically irrelevant videos. If anything you made my point, those were psychological stops, not physiological stops....they chose to stop. They could have kept fighting. Hence why someone on PCP can be shot NUMEROUS times and still fight. They don't choose to stop psychologically, they are physiologically able to still function and they do as a result unless you do a CNS hit or bleed them out enough that their brain can't get oxygen, and even then they can still function for 30 seconds. MEDICAL SCIENTIFIC FACT, not a broad brush of opinion formed from videos....

You win.

 

[Bushman]

You win.

You're still gonna let me spoon you later, right?

 

[EHJ]

.

 

[L84Cabo]

Honestly, I wouldn't hesitate to carry any of these. I personally run HST's in my guns. The 9mm's also have solid performance out of shorter barrels if you happen to carry a sub compact. I don't know how the others perform as I've never checked.

I probably wouldn't be selling any ammo right now, given the state of things. Unless you have a ton and are trying to make some $$.

 

[Kruel J]

You're still gonna let me spoon you later, right?

No. I just don't have the interest to argue. I'll say this much, I don't believe that every person that's shot in a non-lethal area just DECIDES to drop (if they do) as you state.

But again, you win. Congrats.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Handguns have NEVER been "ideal" for "stopping" someone who wants to not stop. For a long time I would hear the tales of people soaking up hits and most often thought they were almost all just stories that kept getting better with the re telling. Then camera's started to be everywhere. We started to see lots of video of these guys shot multiple times and still not giving up. Lots of them are dopers of course but it's still scary to watch them and then pick up my little .380 because I am just heading out to get a snack It did make me take to using 10 round mags in my carry 1911.

Ball ammo for both?

 

[Bushman]

No. I just don't have the interest to argue. I'll say this much, I don't believe that every person that's shot in a non-lethal area just DECIDES to drop (if they do) as you state.

But again, you win. Congrats.

Lol, OK, I'm not sure how you would counter my scientific points and sources anyways, but you are free to believe whatever you like contrary to medical science based on videos you watched...enjoy.

 

[Kruel J]

Lol, OK, you are free to believe whatever you like contrary to medical science...enjoy.

Are you a trained doctor? Do you have personal experience with GSW's? If so, I'll gladly change my post. If not, you're asking me to believe you over the videos I've seen and both of them lend about the same credibility.

 

[Bushman]

Are you a trained doctor? Do you have personal experience with GSW's? If so, I'll gladly change my post. If not, you're asking me to believe you over the videos I've seen and both of them lend about the same credibility.

Pretty poor straw man argument. I just quoted trained doctors from medical journals that said the exact same thing I posted earlier that you took issue with citing your videos as contrary evidence lol and your response is that I can't expect you to believe me because I'm not a doctor...except I didn't expect you to believe me, I just cited credible SOURCES from a medical journal written BY a doctor who is a world renowned subject matter expert on the topic....lol

Your source is videos you watched, but you're right, me citing medical doctors is no where near as stong a evidence as your videos and I can't expect you to believe me because I'm not a doctor...after I posted quotes from cited journals written by doctors who are experts on the subject (Martin Fackler is another one). That's the real reason you left the topic, because you really have no argument other than your videos after I cited medical science, lol. Good luck. There is nothing left to prove to those who refuse to accept science and cited sources over their own subjective opinion from videos...

 

[Kruel J]

Pretty poor straw man argument. I just quoted trained doctors from medical journals that said the exact same thing I posted earlier that you took issue with citing your videos as contrary evidence lol and your response is that I can't expect you to believe me because I'm not a doctor...except I didn't expect you to believe me, I just cited credible SOURCES from a medical journal written BY a doctor....lol

Your source is videos you watched, but you're right, me citing medical doctors is no where near as stong a evidence as your videos. Good luck.

Medical malpractice is or at least was the leading cause of death in this country. You'll pardon me for not taking some quotes from some doctor as gospel. I could be completely wrong here for sure. But I'm not gonna keep going back and forth with you about it. I posted that I disagreed and why. You're the one who's upset by that. I'm totally good.

 

[EHJ]

Pretty poor straw man argument. I just quoted trained doctors from medical journals. Martin Fackler is another one you can read up on. I don't have to be a doctor to cite their studies and education as well as experience on the matter.
Your source is videos you watched, but you're right, me citing medical doctors is no where near as stong a evidence as your videos. Good luck.

You asked what jhp expanded better. You provided a picture.
People responded.
It just confuses me that you seemed more equipped with answers already.
As far as I can tell from that picture (I blew it up and used a ruler) - it appears that they all spread pretty much the same as each other.

Just trying to be excellent here - but your condescension is not very becoming.

Peace.

 

[Bushman]

Medical malpractice is or at least was the leading cause of death in this country. You'll pardon me for not taking some quotes from some doctor as gospel. I could be completely wrong here for sure. But I'm not gonna keep going back and forth with you about it. I posted that I disagreed and why. You're the one who's upset by that. I'm totally good.

Medical malpractice is something like a doctor misdiagnosing your or cutting off the wrong limb. My brother is a MD AND an Attorney, he tries medical malpractice cases using his medical experience.

I was talking about pretty obvious science: your body can't function without blood or a brain or nervous system. If you don't disable those, the person can keep functioning. This isn't malpractice in a specific case of misdiagnosis. It's a scientific fact just like gravity...

But you do you...

 

[Bushman]

You asked what jhp expanded better. You provided a picture.
People responded.
It just confuses me that you seemed more equipped with answers already.
As far as I can tell from that picture (I blew it up and used a ruler) - it appears that they all spread pretty much the same as each other.

Just trying to be excellent here - but your condescension is not very becoming.

Peace.

First of all, he accused me of painting with a broad brush. I responded with factual evidence citing several sources about stopping power. None of which has anything to do with the JHP question I posted in the context of which JHP is better overall (flash, reliability, expansion, etc.. So you really have ZERO point here about anything and your comment about me having all the answers is baseless and insulting. He made a claim contrary to may claim. I backed my claim up with science citing sources. He was unable to cite any evidence to support his claims. THAT is a FACT. So go on the ignore list dude with your petty child like "you have all the answers" nonsense because I posted credible sources of Medical Doctors opinions, seriously.

 

[EHJ]

First of all, he accused me of painting with a broad brush. I responded with factual evidence citing several sources about stopping power. None of which has anything to do with the JHP question I posted in the context of which JHP is better overall (flash, reliability, expansion, etc.. So you really have ZERO point here about anything.

All those rounds will kill (and stop) people better than fmj.
Pew pew.

 

[Alexx1401]

Ball ammo for both?

Still use HP's in the 1911's. Use ball in the .380 Over the years I long ago just gave up on HP's for the mouse guns. figure with a marginal at best round I will go for as much penetration as I can get and hope for damage. With the .45 I suspect those HP's often would not really open at the speed they go but since they make a .45 hole anyway................

 

[EHJ]

Oh Lookie!
I got ghosted.
Well then...

 

[Kruel J]

First of all, he accused me of painting with a broad brush. I responded with factual evidence citing several sources about stopping power. None of which has anything to do with the JHP question I posted in the context of which JHP is better overall (flash, reliability, expansion, etc.. So you really have ZERO point here about anything and your comment about me having all the answers is baseless and insulting. He made a claim contrary to may claim. I backed my claim up with science citing sources. He was unable to cite any evidence to support his claims. THAT is a FACT. So go on the ignore list dude with your petty child like "you have all the answers" nonsense because I posted credible sources of Medical Doctors opinions, seriously.

Since I am the "he" in your post maybe you should put me on ignore too.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Y'all is getting purty bent about all this, Fact of the matter is; Pistol Bullets do a piss poor job at imitating a rifle, and "Factuals" don't count for much! Another thing to think about very hard here, MOST bullets are only designed for ONE caliber, and then adopted to others, often with less then stellar results, so what one person gets out of his gun, the next guy will not, and then, the target must be the same, which in life, never happens! This is all just pissing in the wind, pick one you can shoot well out of your piece and run with it! There is no such thing as a majik boolit, so do what ya gotta do! Me, I hand load 180 gr Golden Sabers to 1340is FPS out of a 5 in. 10 mm auto, And I don't give a phuck about what folks say about running hand rolled ammo in my defensive pistol!

 

[nammac]

What Ura-Ki said...