Private party transactions question

[erudne]

One more gun registered to one more person and that info will never disappear. If that person (or his family) ever gets on a No-Fly list (or a million other lists) the SWAT Team will be paying that address a visit in the middle of the night in a no knock raid. Guess what will happen then?

 

[nammac]

Me thinks they need to head back to the south side of Chicago, where they belong....

 

[STUKA]

I can say with certainty that a CHL-CHL deal occurred today .3 miles from the State Capitol at the very time the "Governor" was in it's meeting to try to enact more "common sense" gun regulations.
I heard this,anyway.

 

[nammac]

I can say with certainty that a CHL-CHL deal occurred today .3 miles from the State Capitol at the very time the "Governor" was in it's meeting to try to enact more "common sense" gun regulations.
I heard this,anyway.

Okay, I like the referral to the governor as "it"! Very appropriate... You get a double thumbs up for that one!

Thomas Jefferson recommended that if a man finds a law unjust, he is obligated and justified in ignoring it....

Me thinketh this applies to laws of any type regulating firearms ownership, use or carry...

 

[Hedrin]

I have had good luck with receiving guns from something like Gunbroker at Shooter's Service Center in St. Johns. Not the cheapest, but I have been buying from them for literally decades.

$35 for the first gun, $10 each additional.

 

[tionico]

Since i come from a land (CA) that has been doing the PPT (private party transfer) for quite some time i'll fill you in on what i've seen/experienced/common practice.

When a PPT is completed, the FFL has a form that records the buyers and sellers info. It is not a federal form, it varies from FFL to FFL. Some FFL's have both the seller and buyer fill their form out while others type it up on their computer. 90% of the time they hand both parties copies of it unless you don't want it. i have many of these sitting in my safe from previous guns i've purchased or sold while in CA.
Don't be alarmed. If anything...this is a safeguard for you. If for some reason the FFL didn't file the 4473 properly then at least you have a record of the transaction in case "something" happens.

but if the FFL blows it and fails to file something, how can it come back on me anyway? That would be a lot like the "minister" who officiates a wedding of two people and "forgets" to file the papers with the county (likely pocketing the hefty fee.......) then, when the couple end up filing for divorce and the court goes looking for the "license" there IS none.... so they are not married legally..... and now don't have to pay the lawyers to wrangle all the court nonsense. (never could locate that "minister" either.... strange, that)

 

[berk walker]

I think that it is a way to maybe catch a fake ID. I'd say "good Idea".
On the other hand...No place is perfect.

Tigard Pawn 4 More, they are inexpensive, and they're efficient. But, requiring a color copy of my drivers license for their files? Why?

WAYNO.[/QUOTE]

 

[308Tom]

Since i come from a land (CA) that has been doing the PPT (private party transfer) for quite some time i'll fill you in on what i've seen/experienced/common practice.

When a PPT is completed, the FFL has a form that records the buyers and sellers info. It is not a federal form, it varies from FFL to FFL. Some FFL's have both the seller and buyer fill their form out while others type it up on their computer. 90% of the time they hand both parties copies of it unless you don't want it. i have many of these sitting in my safe from previous guns i've purchased or sold while in CA.
Don't be alarmed. If anything...this is a safeguard for you. If for some reason the FFL didn't file the 4473 properly then at least you have a record of the transaction in case "something" happens.

The only required "filing" of a completed 1443 by an FFL is in the FFL's files. The form is not sent anywhere. But - if requested by AFT as part of a gun tracing the FFL must then provide a copy to ATF showing the recipient of the item. The FFL must keep the 1443s in his files for 20 years or until they cease doing business. After 20 years the files may be destroyed, if the business ceases the forms must be turned over to ATF.

 

[munkel]

For you guys who have gone to Tigard Pawn, I just called to check hours for tomorrow and they said to make sure and bring a trigger lock for handguns as it was required for transfer, are they just meaning the cable lock or an actual trigger lock? Thanks!

 

[The Heretic]

The only required "filing" of a completed 1443 by an FFL is in the FFL's files. The form is not sent anywhere. But - if requested by AFT as part of a gun tracing the FFL must then provide a copy to ATF showing the recipient of the item. The FFL must keep the 1443s in his files for 20 years or until they cease doing business. After 20 years the files may be destroyed, if the business ceases the forms must be turned over to ATF.

Close, but not quite right.

First, the form is #4473, not 1443.

Second:

All FFLs shall retain each Form 4473 and 4473(LV) for a period not less than 20 years from the date of sale or disposition of the firearms. Forms 4473 obtained by FFLs where the NICS check was initiated, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm was not completed must be retained for a period of not less than 5 years.1

Licensees are also required to retain the ATF Form 3310.4, Multiple Sales or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, as well as ATF Form 3310.11, Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report, for a period of not less than 5 years.200

Retention of the records relating to transactions in semi-automatic assault weapons must be retained for a period not less 5 years

https://www.atf.gov/file/58176/download

-----

Finally, the data that goes into the NICS/FICS/etc. used for background checks, includes the serial number, make, model and type of firearm. That data is supposedly "deleted" from computer systems after a set period of time (5 years?), but if you believe that then I have some land I want to sell you in a little place in Florida called the Okefenokee.

 

[tkdguy]

Rain and thunder. After sb 941 OFF notified that beyond the scope of SB 941 BOTH the private buyer and seller are now listed with the state as different from the buyer only. The seller of record goes beyond the scope of SB 941 so I am informed but the state dems wanted to have the seller of record in addition to the buyer of record. That way the state gathers a list of who owns guns both the sellers and buyers. It is my understanding that the state having a record of the seller is beyond the scope of sb 941--thereby taking liberties not authorized by the legislature. Sorry, just what I have read. It is my understanding that the compliance with SB 941 for private seller to private buyer are accounting for a very few of the transactions on a monthly basis.

 

[tionico]

Rain and thunder. After sb 941 OFF notified that beyond the scope of SB 941 BOTH the private buyer and seller are now listed with the state as different from the buyer only. The seller of record goes beyond the scope of SB 941 so I am informed but the state dems wanted to have the seller of record in addition to the buyer of record. That way the state gathers a list of who owns guns both the sellers and buyers. It is my understanding that the state having a record of the seller is beyond the scope of sb 941--thereby taking liberties not authorized by the legislature. Sorry, just what I have read. It is my understanding that the compliance with SB 941 for private seller to private buyer are accounting for a very few of the transactions on a monthly basis.

and I've got a pretty strong hunch I know why..... and yes, the added business of recording the name and ID of the seller is overreach. They are setting the stage for the Bloomgurg Registration system. And that can ONLY work if all "disposals" are recorded. The plan is that eventually every acquisition will come from a known source, and thus every gun so acquired will be in the database. Thus they will, after about four hundred years, have a complete list of all guns in the state and who owns them and where they are. Bloomie would love to have it so.

Someone in Oregon needs to file a lawsuit to overturn this. It IS counter to the 2nd adding the burden of the BGC, time, travel, fees, records, etc IS an infringement.

 

[tkdguy]

People are protesting with civil disobedience like Conn. and NY state and BLM/ occupy.

 

[308Tom]

Close, but not quite right.

First, the form is #4473, not 1443.

Second:

All FFLs shall retain each Form 4473 and 4473(LV) for a period not less than 20 years from the date of sale or disposition of the firearms. Forms 4473 obtained by FFLs where the NICS check was initiated, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm was not completed must be retained for a period of not less than 5 years.1

Licensees are also required to retain the ATF Form 3310.4, Multiple Sales or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, as well as ATF Form 3310.11, Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report, for a period of not less than 5 years.200

Retention of the records relating to transactions in semi-automatic assault weapons must be retained for a period not less 5 years

https://www.atf.gov/file/58176/download

-----

Finally, the data that goes into the NICS/FICS/etc. used for background checks, includes the serial number, make, model and type of firearm. That data is supposedly "deleted" from computer systems after a set period of time (5 years?), but if you believe that then I have some land I want to sell you in a little place in Florida called the Okefenokee.

Thanks for catching my typo - the form number is indeed 4473.

Detailed firearm information is NOT requested NOR required on a regular on-line NICS check. The data is on recorded on the 4473 but in the on-line NICS check firearm data is not requested. Just the "type" of transaction with the choices below:

Purpose ID (18)*
Sale of Handgun
Sale of Long Gun
Sale of Other
Pre-Pawn of Handgun
Pre-Pawn of Long Gun
Pre-Pawn of Other
Redemption of Handgun
Redemption of Long Gun
Redemption of Other
Private Sale of Handgun
Private Sale of Long Gun
Private Sale of Other
Private Sale Return to Seller Handgun
Private Sale Return to Seller Long Gun
Private Sale Return to Seller Other

You are right if there are multiple handgun sales (more than one in less that a business week) then the specific firearm information is sent to ATF on form 3310.4. But that's not a NICS check - it is a separate report.

 

[cmica]

Me thinks they need to head back to the south side of KENYA, where they belong....

fixed