Prep Lessons from Puerto Rico

[dangerranger60]

I had a job offer in PR, But I'm getting too old for that kind of work.
I do have contact with friends working there. The locals believe that the Americans will do it all for them! They tried hiring guy's to sweep off the airport runways and clear the debris so that they could land more aircraft. But the locals won't work! The same on the waterfront, They need debris removed by hand, but can't hire any workers.

A friend thinks that soon they will be trading a days work for food and water! At that point it will be too dangerous to work there! DR

 

[The Heretic]

Just a note - Puerto Rico is part of the USA, so saying "the Americans will do it for them" is kind of nonsensical - i.e., they are Americans.

That said, I don't think being an "American" (US citizen) means that a person deserves help when a bad thing happens to them. OTOH - it seemed the feds were quicker to help Texas and Florida, but on the other other hand D), as I explained to my daughter, the US got hit by three hurricanes in a row, FEMA, the military, etc., was already spread thin, so it is not surprising that it takes longer to shift resources to help PR, especially since those resources are still helping in Texas and Florida.

 

[TeacherSmurf]

Like the PNW where we have windstorms and floods every winter? Where we have wildfires every summer? Where we have active volcanoes? Where someday we will have an earthquake that will make the ones in Calif. feel like a dump truck passing by? Where we have droughts and the aquifers being depleted? Where we are getting the radiation from Japan? Where we may be the target of nukes from N. Korea? Where we have Antifa/et. al. riots?

No place has zero threats.

My dad always told me "pick your disaster," when giving advice on places to live. That is part of the reason @CountryGent and I live in a rural area.

To answer your comment, I just assigned my "Oregon Disaster" paper to the freshman geography class. The assignment requires them to each pick a separate natural disaster that occurred in Oregon and write two to three pages on the who, what, when, where, how, and prevention (if possible). I'll be assigning my 7th grade geography class a "Disaster Brochure" along the same lines, although theirs is not limited to Oregon.

I have also tried to get the Red Cross to come to my school to teach a preparedness class, but we don't have enough people. I have taken my "disaster bag" out of my car and shown them (most) of the contents. and tell them that people have died because they did not have a bag like that in their vehicle.

*Teacher Mode* According to Popular Mechanics, a ship only has to be able to go 14 knots to stay ahead of a hurricane. The pictures you posted were those that were anchored. Therefore, they were in the most danger of damage as they had nowhere else to go other than crashing into each other or into the docks, unlike in the open ocean. For a tsunamis, the open ocean waves are not nearly the magnitude that they are closer to shore. It is the under water shoreline that increases the intensity as the land slows the water below down, but the water above is still moving fast.

 

[The Heretic]

I think the main things to be learned here are not about the evils of socialism/etc., but rather the effects of having just about everything flattened, especially infrastructure. Although it is a different cause, the severity is almost as bad as what would happen here with 'the big one' and the effects are similar. I think it would take longer to recover here if we got hit by an 8+ earthquake because the severity would be worse (IMO) but the types of problems - comms, power grid, transport, water, food, would be present.

 

[The Heretic]

*Teacher Mode* According to Popular Mechanics, a ship only has to be able to go 14 knots to stay ahead of a hurricane. The pictures you posted were those that were anchored. Therefore, they were in the most danger of damage as they had nowhere else to go other than crashing into each other or into the docks, unlike in the open ocean. For a tsunamis, the open ocean waves are not nearly the magnitude that they are closer to shore. It is the under water shoreline that increases the intensity as the land slows the water below down, but the water above is still moving fast.

Again - ever been on the ocean in a storm? Even the fringes of it?

Just a gentle storm will wear you out in short order. I remember one gentle storm where we towed a fishing boat back from the rock pile using the 52' MLB in the last pic I posted. The mission lasted 36 hours. The coxswain was in the hospital for the better part of a week, I had so much salt on my face it took effort to open my eyes. The whole crew of five were suffering from exposure and dehydration and we slept for two days straight afterwards. We were unable to function as a crew to bring the tow across the bar and had to be relieved before we brought it across.

Being on the ocean in a 'small' boat is not smooth sailing, even with a trained experienced crew and especially not when on the edges of a hurricane. And BTW, you don't necessarily know where that hurricane is going.

I will reiterate - I have been out there, and it would not be my choice, even in the most durable boats there are (such as a 52' MLB made for rough surf) with an experienced crew. I would much rather tough it out on land - and have (I was here in 1962 - I went through that hurricane in the basement of my grandparents house). No way would I want to go out in a pleasure craft.

 

[Argonaut]

Just a note - Puerto Rico is part of the USA, so saying "the Americans will do it for them" is kind of nonsensical - i.e., they are Americans.

That said, I don't think being an "American" (US citizen) means that a person deserves help when a bad thing happens to them. OTOH - it seemed the feds were quicker to help Texas and Florida, but on the other other hand D), as I explained to my daughter, the US got hit by three hurricanes in a row, FEMA, the military, etc., was already spread thin, so it is not surprising that it takes longer to shift resources to help PR, especially since those resources are still helping in Texas and Florida.

I disagree on the point that the Fed was quicker on the conus disasters......the people in Texas and (surprisingly) Florida pitched in and are getting the job done (with assistance from the Fed) how many people would it take to clear the roads of debris so the 3000 shipping containers of supplies stuck in the port can be delivered to where they need to be? I am sure that with the meager equipment and kids I have here we could clear several miles a day. Do you think the Texans are waiting for the Fed to rescue them? Did you see the lines of people with boats and equipment headed into the disaster area to help before it was even over? They didn't wait for someone to give them money or anything else to help, they knew what needed done and are taking care of it. Even the normally bureaucratic politicians got out of the way and encouraged them...(off course they were Republicans not the sniffling Democrats of New Orleans or Porto Rico.....Rom Emanuel "never let a disaster go to waste") Why do you think Puerto Rico has been on the verge of bankruptcy for decades? They are in one of the most ideal locations on the planet and can't or won't even capitalize on what they have. The Florida airports were open and operating in 3 days.....do you think the Fed had anything to do with that? Do you remember the incredible ice storm in the Spokane area maby 20 years ago now? My folks were older retired by then, they were 3 weeks without power in the dead of winter in there south hill urban home. Nobody whined....they just did what was nessisary to survive and rebuild That is what real Americans do.

 

[Argonaut]

Again - ever been on the ocean in a storm? Even the fringes of it?

Just a gentle storm will wear you out in short order. I remember one gentle storm where we towed a fishing boat back from the rock pile using the 52' MLB in the last pic I posted. The mission lasted 36 hours. The coxswain was in the hospital for the better part of a week, I had so much salt on my face it took effort to open my eyes. The whole crew of five were suffering from exposure and dehydration and we slept for two days straight afterwards. We were unable to function as a crew to bring the tow across the bar and had to be relieved before we brought it across.

Being on the ocean in a 'small' boat is not smooth sailing, even with a trained experienced crew and especially not when on the edges of a hurricane. And BTW, you don't necessarily know where that hurricane is going.

I will reiterate - I have been out there, and it would not be my choice, even in the most durable boats there are (such as a 52' MLB made for rough surf) with an experienced crew. I would much rather tough it out on land - and have (I was here in 1962 - I went through that hurricane in the basement of my grandparents house). No way would I want to go out in a pleasure craft.

I have been in many storms on the ocean.......have owned and operated a medium size marine salvage company for 30 years......I have 2 kids in the USCG and in my 13 years in Combat rescue in the USAF worked in many disaster relief missions. The military sends there ships to sea when they face a major storm. My daughter rode out Sandy off shore in her 47 foot USCG cutter off Long Island. I had my personal crews doing relief work after the north ridge earth quake and doing cleanup after Texas hurricanes on the water.....it isn't that tough....you just have to do it, one part at a time and not huddle in some corner waiting for someone to rescue you.

 

[TeacherSmurf]

Again - ever been on the ocean in a storm? Even the fringes of it?

I will reiterate - I have been out there, and it would not be my choice, even in the most durable boats there are (such as a 52' MLB made for rough surf) with an experienced crew. I would much rather tough it out on land - and have (I was here in 1962 - I went through that hurricane in the basement of my grandparents house). No way would I want to go out in a pleasure craft.

You may have more first hand knowledge, but you lose me when you call the Columbus Day Storm a hurricane. By definition, hurricanes are in the Atlantic, typhoons are in the Pacific. The Columbus Day Storm was downgraded from Typhoon Freda to an extra-tropical storm by the time it reached landfall in the PNW. Sorry, I literally just went JUST went over this in both my classes.

 

[Argonaut]

There are many ways to deal with tropical storms, the Pacific Islanders traditionally lived in lightly built structures that we're easily replaced or repaired after the inevitable storms came through. My wife is an architectural structural engineer with a very active practice mostly in earth quake country. She is always suspect of masonry structures during a quake.....as was proven again th the recent Mexico City problems.......there are structures that survived the storm, but poorly designed cheep ones didn't.....do you know who enforces building codes? People like that idiot mayor that is all over the news right now in Puerto Rico. She and her administration bear a large responsibility for the disaster that is unfolding. Off course.....she wants to blame everyone else. There is a large USCG base on the island, have you seen any unexpected damage to there facilities? I am sure they have broken windows, some awnings blown off and are on emergency power.......but they are operational and responding wherever needed. My son has friends in that unit. They are working untold hours to rescue people that need it. While you are watching images of any disaster, remember that a camera lens has a very narrow field of view and newsmen are great salesmen.....focusing on the most dramatic images available. They make for a better if not more sensational story.

 

[P7M13]

- their leader may be crazy, but he isn't an idiot, unlike ours which is a big idiot and somewhat crazy).

I would speculate, most politicians, from the local level all the way to the top, would qualify as somewhat crazy or power hungry. Idiocy is endemic in government, and even the most intelligent person, after working in the government, has lost double digits from their IQ.

...*Teacher Mode* According to Popular Mechanics, a ship only has to be able to go 14 knots to stay ahead of a hurricane.

Realist mode: where you gonna go to out-run a storm that is as much as 400 miles wide? Eleven knots works if you are moving away from it in the same path, but you better have a sh1tload of fuel. If you are moving away at a right angle to the path, you need to be a heckuvalot faster, and have a few tons of fuel.

...My daughter rode out Sandy off shore in her 47 foot cutter off Long Island.

Would much rather be in a cutter or sloop during a hurricane than any kind of motor yacht.

 

[Argonaut]

I would speculate, most politicians, from the local level all the way to the top, would qualify as somewhat crazy or power hungry. Idiocy is endemic in government, and even the most intelligent person, after working in the government, has lost double digits from their IQ.


Realist mode: where you gonna go to out-run a storm that is as much as 400 miles wide? Eleven knots works if you are moving away from it in the same path, but you better have a sh1tload of fuel. If you are moving away at a right angle to the path, you need to be a heckuvalot faster, and have a few tons of fuel.


Would much rather be in a cutter or sloop during a hurricane than any kind of motor yacht.

Do you know what a cutter or a sloop is? The military doesn't send ships to sea to outrun a storm but to weather it.

 

[The Heretic]

You may have more first hand knowledge, but you lose me when you call the Columbus Day Storm a hurricane. By definition, hurricanes are in the Atlantic, typhoons are in the Pacific. The Columbus Day Storm was downgraded from Typhoon Freda to an extra-tropical storm by the time it reached landfall in the PNW. Sorry, I literally just went JUST went over this in both my classes.

Typhoon == hurricane. Six of one, half dozen of another.

It is still caused death and destruction. The fact that one comes from the Atlantic and the other from the Pacific, makes no difference to the people it hit. Ask the relatives of the 46 people it killed and the hundreds injured. The peak winds varied between 145 and 170 MPH. Calling a "storm" is a bit of an understatement. The damage in today's dollars would be several billion.

As I said, I was there - I may have only been 8 years old, but I remember it vividly and I remember the damage afterwards.

 

[P7M13]

Do you know what a cutter or a sloop is? The military doesn't send ships to sea to outrun a storm but to weather it.

I double checked to see if you referred to your daughter as in the USCG or Navy. I didn't see it - must have overlooked - so presumed she was a civvie. And yes, in my younger days, I both sailed and raced on cutters and sloops in the Great Lakes. I've turned turtle more than once, been on a sloop (NY32) that was blown-down, and been in races where other boats had their masts snapped in half. And I don't consider that I have much experience as a sailor.

 

[TeacherSmurf]

Typhoon == hurricane. Six of one, half dozen of another.

Sorry, can't help myself.

 

[CountryGent]

Sorry, can't help myself.

LOL! You are such a nerd. But, as you know, I love it!

 

[The Heretic]

Sorry, can't help myself.

I'm the same way, but many people don't even know what a typhoon is.

 

[Argonaut]

I double checked to see if you referred to your daughter as in the USCG or Navy. I didn't see it - must have overlooked - so presumed she was a civvie. And yes, in my younger days, I both sailed and raced on cutters and sloops in the Great Lakes. I've turned turtle more than once, been on a sloop (NY32) that was blown-down, and been in races where other boats had their masts snapped in half. And I don't consider that I have much experience as a sailor.

So.......how are those not yachts? My daughter spent 4 years on the USCG cutter Munro patrolling winters in the Bearing sea and 2 years on a 47 foot USCG cutter out of the Cape Cod area. I owned a NY 40 (as I remember) for a short period of time....I bought it at an impound sale in Marina Del Rey, it was needy but defiantly a yacht. It has since been rebuilt and reoffered for sale at 1,000,000. It was the only boat of its class on the west coast. Had been sailed through the canal many decades ago.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Check out this boat.. I hear they'll be OK because the professor is pretty handy with coconuts.

 

[P7M13]

So.......how are those not yachts? My daughter spent 4 years on the USCG cutter Munro patrolling winters in the Bearing sea and 2 years on a 47 foot USCG cutter out of the Cape Cod area. I owned a NY 40 (as I remember) for a short period of time....I bought it at an impound sale in Marina Del Rey, it was needy but defiantly a yacht. It has since been rebuilt and reoffered for sale at 1,000,000. It was the only boat of its class on the west coast. Had been sailed through the canal many decades ago.

Call them yachts then, if you please. I certainly didn't comment to instigate an argument.
As you do now, we usually called sailboats by their class or make/waterline. Yachts were what we called inboard motor craft that had a waterline of 15m or longer. Below that, they were boats. About the only sailboats I still recognize are Cape Cod Cats.

 

[P7M13]

Check out this boat.. I hear they'll be OK because the professor is pretty handy with coconuts.

View attachment 394602

And as I recall, the women on board had some pretty good yams too.