Poll: NWFA and the Finicum shooting: where does the membership stand?

[etrain16]

You people are so single minded that you are completely unable to see a different point of view!

You say this site is full of hate, yet all I see are people with some strongly held differing opinions.

It's funny that you fail to see the hypocrisy in your own statement. If you wished to demonstrate your desire for people to see a different point of view, then you would be demonstrating your ability to see the differing points of view presented to you. You're angry that people aren't accepting your point of view. In the process, you have responded not with respect to the other views, but in anger and by very loosely throwing out the word "hate".

You're new here. You didn't introduce yourself before you jumped right in to a very hot topic. You didn't appear to take time to see how this site works. But you've managed to pass judgement on the people here in a span of 7 posts. It's kind of like walking into someone's home or club, throwing out some strong opinions, then getting peeved that people don't immediately jump in and embrace your point of view.

For those of us that have been here more than a few days, we understand that things will get heated in these discussions. Many of us are passionate about our viewpoints, and we're able to go back and forth with people that disagree with us without throwing out personal attacks. I'm sorry if you don't understand that. Maybe take the time to see how folks communicate on this board and you'll get an understanding. It would be more helpful than claiming there is a lot of 'hate' on this site. Honestly, as @Stomper said, that word is used far too often, without even considering what it really means. And honestly, in doing so, it sounds a lot like what the anti-gun left does to us on a regular basis. I would suggest you be careful throwing that word around so easily.

 

[Stomper]

It's clear to me that many a folk could benefit from Dale Carnegie training courses....

 

[Boboclown]

but in anger and by very loosely throwing out the word "hate".

My issue with him saying that is that people often say there's hate without even knowing what hate really is. And he clearly doesn't know whate hate is.

 

[Liberty Machinist]

Can I buy the next round for everybody here????

 

[Boboclown]

Only if its as strong as Bacardi 151.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

I was just catching up on this thread. A lot of disrespect from a newbie!
I hate that.

 

[etrain16]

My issue with him saying that is that people often say there's hate without even knowing what hate really is. And he clearly doesn't know whate hate is.

I think the biggest lesson many people need to learn is that difference of opinion, disagreeing with someone else's opinion, even strongly, is not hate. Unfortunately people like our President continually tell us that differing opinions are equal to hate. Our President, as are many others, are just plain wrong on that account. The worst part is, disagreeing with the President is considered racism, which is, a racist act in and of itself. Alinsky style tactics, pure and simple. He's been a very poor example of what a leader should be, and he's managed to corrupt the minds of many in our country to believe the same way.

It's Alinsky that teaches you attack the person, not the idea. It's a sorry state that so many people fail to learn that distinction.

 

[U201491]

PC Is Only PC if it is from a liberal point of view.
Everything to the right is not PC .
That is the real problem. That is what drags the country down.

 

[Brutus57]

He ran.
Did they start shooting at the first stop?
Do you know what transpired? Were you there?
Based off the info we know. He ran from a law enforcement stop. Was it a traffic stop, arrest stop? Doesn't matter. He fled law enforcement which is a crime.
Maybe if they did shoot at the first stop it was because they feared he would run them down.
We don't have answers to that.
Unlike most stops, the feds knew the person/persons were armed. And he ran.

He ran. We know that for a fact.
While the feds and crooks in the capital escalated the chance for violence, finicum made the decision that led to his own death.

Check the laws on the books...running doesn't give the LEO a free pass to shoot you in the back. Remember the video down south of the cop who shot a guy dead over a broken tail light. As a retired midwest state trooper said after reviewing the video over and over, nothing Finicum did merited lethal force till after they appeared to taze/shoot him. But you watch the news and have been conditioned over the past several years that this is ok. They scraped the bottom of the barrel for charges to even get a warrant so when he did leave the compound they had the appearance of following procedures.
You should be asking why we as the public aren't allowed to see dash cam/body cam and audio of BOTH stops. If all is above board and copacetic why are they withholding this?
Finicum was shot and killed because he stood up within his rights under the Constitution and a liberal government couldn't tolerate that. Too many people are turning a blind eye to what is right and what is wrong. If OSP and the FBI have nothing to hide then show America the other video and audio.

Brutus Out

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Whether the protesters showed up armed or not, there was no possibility of fair treatment from the press or Oregon state government. Both are controlled by hateful, denigrating, condescending know-it-alls. Their way and their opinions are the only ones allowed. Anything else is ignorant, red-neck, neanderthal, and EVIL.

Would it have been smarter to go unarmed? Maybe. It worked for MLK and Ghandi. But maybe there was also a point to be made about armed protesters being non-violent, that guns aren't inherently dangerous, and that nobody got shot by the protesters accidentally or otherwise.

It's a matter of OPINION. And I have a news flash for you, Mark. We're all entitled to our opinions. What we are not entitled to is our own facts. We don't get to declare our own private reality and discount what's real. Just because you disagree with someone it doesn't make them ignorant or stupid, or evil. Try to treat them that way and you won't be wondering why everyone seems so mad at you.

 

[Mark Torrence]

"You're new here. You didn't introduce yourself before you jumped right in to a very hot topic." True! That's because the very first email I got from a site that I was told was "apolitical" was one asking "What do the members think?"

"It's funny that you fail to see the hypocrisy in your own statement. If you wished to demonstrate your desire for people to see a different point of view"
I absolutely see the different point of view! My problem was that MY point of view was completely ignored and it at least FEELS like was instant attack! Put me on the defensive immediately! The point of what I said was completely disregarded and I was told screw the establishment we have the right we will do as we wish! THAT was not my point! I NEVER said they should have gone in unarmed! I said there are ways to do that without drawing attention to that specifically and they way it was done did exactly that! That shifted the focus from the egregious treatment of the local people by the federal government to "ARMED MILITIA". THAT was my point! It might have gone that way no matter HOW it was done but we will never know.

"For those of us that have been here more than a few days"

I have been around for a LONG time! Maybe not on this site but on this earth and through the bubblegum many times! I know how bubblegum works! Your right I did not introduce myself and for that I apologize. Yes I jumped in the deep end and maybe you are correct in that I used a word (hate) that is over used and strong. But I can tell you that is certainly how it felt from my end!
SO let me introduce myself.

I am a 61 year old man who has been married to the same woman for 40 years and in EMS for the last 31 years and a Paramedic for the last 25. Before that I was a journeyman diesel mechanic for 17 years. I lived on the street from 14 until I was 19 at which time I was taken in by a God fearing US Marine and his loving wife! While they didn't raise me they certainly taught me the value of God, Family, Country, and Corps! My FOSTER Dad and I did a great deal of hunting and shooting together. HE instilled in me the drive that makes me who I am today! I have held MANY lives in my hands quite literally. I have handed babies to mothers that were dead when I arrived and alive when I left. I have told husbands of 60 years that the woman they loved is never coming back! I have literally picked up pieces of people and put them back together again! I have poured my heart and soul into people only to have them die and move on to the next level in our existence! I KNOW how bubblegum works! I KNOW what hate is! Hate is what I felt when I got to the scene of a MVC to find an 18 month old child in a car seat in the front of a small truck with her face MANGLED because her drunken and high father was too stupid not to drive!
I love to elk hunt and I really love to shoot long range. I load all my own ammo. Well almost all of it anyway. I built a 700 Remington 338 RUM that will hold just about 3/4 of a minute at 750 yards.
There you have it! NO ONE has EVER accused me of being sensitive or anything but blunt and honest! The one thing you can always count on from me is honesty! NO MATTER WHAT!

 

[Boboclown]

I absolutely see the different point of view! My problem was that MY point of view was completely ignored and it at least FEELS like was instant attack!

The way I see it, it was the argument(s) being attacked, not you. However, seeing a different point of view does not mean agreeing with it. However;

Clearly your right so you go girl!

This seems to be more of an attack on the person, rather than their argument. Ad hominem.

I NEVER said they should have gone in unarmed!

This statement disagrees with;

Had the protesters moved into the Malheur refuge WITHOUT guns

And no, I'm not taking it out of context. In that post, you essentially said they should have been unarmed. No point in saying otherwise, the hole was dug.

But I can tell you that is certainly how it felt from my end!

Knowing how to hate, and what its like to be hated are two different things. What I'm seeing here is more along the lines of dislike/strong dislike.

 

[dobeman]

I don't participate in two question polls.

 

[Mark Torrence]

OK your right I give up!
DONE!

 

[ZigZagZeke]

"You're new here. You didn't introduce yourself before you jumped right in to a very hot topic." True! That's because the very first email I got from a site that I was told was "apolitical" was one asking "What do the members think?"

"It's funny that you fail to see the hypocrisy in your own statement. If you wished to demonstrate your desire for people to see a different point of view"
I absolutely see the different point of view! My problem was that MY point of view was completely ignored and it at least FEELS like was instant attack! Put me on the defensive immediately! The point of what I said was completely disregarded and I was told screw the establishment we have the right we will do as we wish! THAT was not my point! I NEVER said they should have gone in unarmed! I said there are ways to do that without drawing attention to that specifically and they way it was done did exactly that! That shifted the focus from the egregious treatment of the local people by the federal government to "ARMED MILITIA". THAT was my point! It might have gone that way no matter HOW it was done but we will never know.

"For those of us that have been here more than a few days"

I have been around for a LONG time! Maybe not on this site but on this earth and through the bubblegum many times! I know how bubblegum works! Your right I did not introduce myself and for that I apologize. Yes I jumped in the deep end and maybe you are correct in that I used a word (hate) that is over used and strong. But I can tell you that is certainly how it felt from my end!
SO let me introduce myself.

I am a 61 year old man who has been married to the same woman for 40 years and in EMS for the last 31 years and a Paramedic for the last 25. Before that I was a journeyman diesel mechanic for 17 years. I lived on the street from 14 until I was 19 at which time I was taken in by a God fearing US Marine and his loving wife! While they didn't raise me they certainly taught me the value of God, Family, Country, and Corps! My FOSTER Dad and I did a great deal of hunting and shooting together. HE instilled in me the drive that makes me who I am today! I have held MANY lives in my hands quite literally. I have handed babies to mothers that were dead when I arrived and alive when I left. I have told husbands of 60 years that the woman they loved is never coming back! I have literally picked up pieces of people and put them back together again! I have poured my heart and soul into people only to have them die and move on to the next level in our existence! I KNOW how bubblegum works! I KNOW what hate is! Hate is what I felt when I got to the scene of a MVC to find an 18 month old child in a car seat in the front of a small truck with her face MANGLED because her drunken and high father was too stupid not to drive!
I love to elk hunt and I really love to shoot long range. I load all my own ammo. Well almost all of it anyway. I built a 700 Remington 338 RUM that will hold just about 3/4 of a minute at 750 yards.
There you have it! NO ONE has EVER accused me of being sensitive or anything but blunt and honest! The one thing you can always count on from me is honesty! NO MATTER WHAT!

Fair enough. Let's discuss the situation. Whether the protesters should have been armed or not is a matter of perspective. If you're a rural person used to solving your own problems because there really isn't anybody to solve them for you a gun is a tool, like a pocket knife. It's as natural to carry one as it is for a Portlander to carry a cell phone.

On the other hand, the only time city people see a firearm is on a cop show, being used by a criminal to shoot an innocent victim, or a cop to shoot a criminal. Showing up to a protest armed is a bad idea to some, and of no concern to others. Yes, unfortunate statements were made. Whether they were true or not, making those statements about not being taken alive was not smart. Why put a target on your own back, even if that course of action is your resolve?

The fact is that these people were and are being treated as terrorists for political reasons. Mercenary anti-terrorist teams were brought in by either the FBI or the State of Oregon. Is that now going to be the norm? I have a LOT of heartburn with some of the people on both sides of this event, but the government is supposed to know better and behave better. There was NO need for anyone to die.

 

[U201491]

Fair enough. Let's discuss the situation. Whether the protesters should have been armed or not is a matter of perspective. If you're a rural person used to solving your own problems because there really isn't anybody to solve them for you a gun is a tool, like a pocket knife. It's as natural to carry one as it is for a Portlander to carry a cell phone.

On the other hand, the only time city people see a firearm is on a cop show, being used by a criminal to shoot an innocent victim, or a cop to shoot a criminal. Showing up to a protest armed is a bad idea to some, and of no concern to others. Yes, unfortunate statements were made. Whether they were true or not, making those statements about not being taken alive was not smart. Why put a target on your own back, even if that course of action is your resolve?

The fact is that these people were and are being treated as terrorists for political reasons. Mercenary anti-terrorist teams were brought in by either the FBI or the State of Oregon. Is that now going to be the norm? I have a LOT of heartburn with some of the people on both sides of this event, but the government is supposed to know better and behave better. There was NO need for anyone to die.

When you look deep, He actually did not commit any crime at all if the Constitution was followed to the letter.

What his only crime was, was and this is only a crime in the eyes of the government, He spoke out against them, and he revealed and exposed their moral crimes of greed, payoffs, land stealing and lining their own pockets and selling out our country to the likes of Russia, China, and Saudis and others.
They did not like it.
Harry Reid did not like it Clintons did not like it, Defazzio did not like it and Kate Brown pushed to do anything necessary to get them. Well they did.

Very little chance of ever convincing me that it was not an execution for making a few corrupt people mad. Not one thing that he did would or did justify the kind of force used, the methods used, and definitely not a death sentence.

A full out murder was committed and those that pulled the triggers need to be put on trial and judged, along side of those that ordered it all to take place.

When the people lose the right to speak out and protest what they feel is unjust treatment by government this country is no longer free, and literally a tyranny.

That is what transpired. So what country is this.
It is supposed to be America.
What I saw there makes this AmeriKa.

Lavoy Finicum was no criminal. He was a good man, A family man, A rancher, A father and Husband and he spoke up for freedom. Spoke up for himself, the Hammonds and for others.

They killed him for daring to exercise his clear constitutional rights.
They killed him for exposing their corrupt behavior.

.

 

[FireArm]

The intent behind the checkpoint alone should prove the plan was to kill someone that day. Directional barriers, vehicles, men in the treeline with scoped long guns, drone.
A military style roadblock in a rural isolated area...

 

[ZigZagZeke]

When you look deep, He actually did not commit any crime at all if the Constitution was followed to the letter.

What his only crime was, was and this is only a crime in the eyes of the government, He spoke out against them, and he revealed and exposed their moral crimes of greed, payoffs, land stealing and lining their own pockets and selling out our country to the likes of Russia, China, and Saudis and others.
They did not like it.
Harry Reid did not like it Clintons did not like it, Defazzio did not like it and Kate Brown pushed to do anything necessary to get them. Well they did.

Very little chance of ever convincing me that it was not an execution for making a few corrupt people mad. Not one thing that he did would or did justify the kind of force used, the methods used, and definitely not a death sentence.

A full out murder was committed and those that pulled the triggers need to be put on trial and judged, along side of those that ordered it all to take place.

When the people lose the right to speak out and protest what they feel is unjust treatment by government this country is no longer free, and literally a tyranny.

That is what transpired. So what country is this.
It is supposed to be America.
What I saw there makes this AmeriKa.

Lavoy Finicum was no criminal. He was a good man, A family man, A rancher, A father and Husband and he spoke up for freedom. Spoke up for himself, the Hammonds and for others.

They killed him for daring to exercise his clear constitutional rights.
They killed him for exposing their corrupt behavior.

.

Exactly right, Taku. I may not have agreed with some of his actions or some of his statements, but he committed no crime worthy of being shot at. If the LEOs didn't start shooting at the first stop it seems to me it would be an easy matter to produce video and sound of that stop and PROVE that the eye witnesses were lying or mistaken. Why haven't they?

 

[U201491]

Exactly right, Taku. I may not have agreed with some of his actions or some of his statements, but he committed no crime worthy of being shot at. If the LEOs didn't start shooting at the first stop it seems to me it would be an easy matter to produce video and sound of that stop and PROVE that the eye witnesses were lying or mistaken. Why haven't they?

I pray there will be a National Outcry to bring those responsible to trial, all the way up to the ones that profited from it. One that won't quit til it happens.

 

[Stomper]

Some "radical nutjob" (you know who you are ) sent me this link....

TAKE THE TIME AND WATCH (or listen to) IT!!!

It isn't about deadbeat ranchers not paying "grazing fees", or "terrorist acts of arson". This spells out the big picture of what's going on.... WAKE UP!