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You didn't read what I said. I stated what does work and what doesn't. No one said give up.
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I don't buy into any media story without proven facts to back it up. Let alone a liberal sorry excuse for a media shill. one thing is true NRA is in the red and leadershipneeds to get it in the green. They need to do it in an ethical way, and they need to cut their salaries to zero until they do, otherwise step down. Voting members have never had much of a say in how the NRA sets up fees and I believe they have milked the cow more than once on too many an occasion and shown little respect to the many good people who make the NRA something more than an idea. The NRA could be doing more to get citizens involved in gun sport, and their modus operandi reflects this. We should be doing everything we can to get young folks into shooting sports and dollar symbols should come second to leaderships funding streams. Fund raising could be significantly higher, and any bank who stands in our way and violates our constitutional rights, which seems to be a big scare tactic used, will be sued into oblivion and shut down by the executive branch at least until we get a lib in office
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I've been trying to let the thread die down, but I felt the need to comment and clarify this.
The investigative report was written and published by The New Yorker, which is a very liberal media source. That much is true.
What many seem to be missing is that the article linked to in the original post was authored by Jeff Knox, who is anything but liberal. For those who don't know who Jeff Knox is, he is the son of Neal Knox, who was the one who originally tried to expose Wayne LaPierre for the exact things that the article is discussing now. If anyone would have a good idea of what goes on in the inner workings of the NRA, it would be Jeff, because he literally grew up in it.
Considering Jeff is basically corroborating everything the article said, I think that does give it considerable weight, despite the original source. Here is the link again, for those who haven't yet read it:
NRA's Dirty Laundry Exposed as Pro-Gun Group Cleans House
Here are some sub-links in Jeff's article, corroborating much of what I mentioned earlier:
Are We Revising NRA History?
Time for Changes at National Rifle Association
My National Rifle Association Expectations
Enemy Within : NRA 2018 Board Election Commentary by Marion Hammer
Vote NO on NRA Bylaw Changes
I can understand that no one wants to take my word for what has been going on in the NRA, considering I'm usually the voice of dissent in political threads, but hopefully you will take Jeff's word for it. Considering Jeff is an NRA life member and has been involved in the NRA for 40 years, as well as being the son of Neil Knox, hopefully his words mean something to you.
For those who want a better insight into the character of Jeff Knox, here is the transcript of a speech he gave:
The Blessings of Liberty for Our Posterity ~ VIDEO
Again, I'm not asking you to take my word for anything, I'm simply asking you to read the words of someone who truly was at ground zero. I'll let his words speak for themselves.
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You're on target. Additionally, the IRS ratcheted up the self-dealing rules way back in the 1990's. However, ultimately, the first line against corruption in an organization is the members.
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How many more lawsuits or pro gun items could that squandered money have gone to? Until they clean up their act SAF will get my extra money
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While I have no doubt that there is more going on behind the scenes at the NRA than either the public or most members will ever know about, I also know how media outlets like the New Yorker like to spin anything they can regarding any organization that supports gun rights, so I will reserve judgment until after the dust settles.
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If you read the link posted, you would find that Jeff Knox (NRA Life Member, 40 yrs w/NRA, son of NRA's Neal Knox) has pretty much verified everything in the article.
Look for my previous post on this page, just a few posts up, for links to some of Jeff's other articles on the matter.
You're smart not to just blindly take The New Yorker's word for it, but I'd highly recommend reading the comments from Jeff Knox for better insight on what's really happening with the NRA.
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NRA revenues - ~434 million (2016)
SAF revenues - ~4 or 5 million (2017)
GOA revenues - ~roughly 3 million (2016)
The NRA is the oldest and BY FAR the largest pro-2A group in the US, and has been for over 100 years. If we turn our backs on them because they have a few bad apples at the top, we may wake up VERY soon and notice that our gun safes are empty. But, you can use your safe for important papers, computer backup devices, etc. In 2016 the NRA had total revenues of around $434 million. They claim 80% of that went to program services. That will cover a lot of education and lawsuits.
I am sure SAF and GOA are outstanding organizations, but they are tiny compared to the NRA. Are they doing good work? Absolutely - I hear the founder of SAF on Armed America Radio frequently. According to their IRS tax statement, which you can find on their website, SAF had about $4 or $5 million in contributions. GOA looks like roughly 1/2 that size. It would be very interesting to hear representatives of SAF, GOA, etc say whether they would like NRA members to abandon them. I suspect they would not. I say support ALL of them.
SOURCES:
NRA financial info: NRA releases financial statement showing revenue, expenses for 2016
SAF tax form: https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/SAF-2017-IRS-990-Tax-Form.pdf
GOA tax info: Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica
Some asked if a local NRA rep would give a reply. In the front of 1st Freedom magazine, it lists phone numbers of several regional reps - I called, left a message last year, and the rep called me back.
Ackerman - McQueen? They are a PR/publishing/marketing firm the NRA uses for obvious purposes. The NRA is not in the PR/publishing/marketing business - they hire that out so they can focus on pro-2A work. And they are doing A LOT of that and everyone of us who likes the freedom to own firearms is benefiting greatly from their work.
SAF revenues - ~4 or 5 million (2017)
GOA revenues - ~roughly 3 million (2016)
The NRA is the oldest and BY FAR the largest pro-2A group in the US, and has been for over 100 years. If we turn our backs on them because they have a few bad apples at the top, we may wake up VERY soon and notice that our gun safes are empty. But, you can use your safe for important papers, computer backup devices, etc. In 2016 the NRA had total revenues of around $434 million. They claim 80% of that went to program services. That will cover a lot of education and lawsuits.
I am sure SAF and GOA are outstanding organizations, but they are tiny compared to the NRA. Are they doing good work? Absolutely - I hear the founder of SAF on Armed America Radio frequently. According to their IRS tax statement, which you can find on their website, SAF had about $4 or $5 million in contributions. GOA looks like roughly 1/2 that size. It would be very interesting to hear representatives of SAF, GOA, etc say whether they would like NRA members to abandon them. I suspect they would not. I say support ALL of them.
SOURCES:
NRA financial info: NRA releases financial statement showing revenue, expenses for 2016
SAF tax form: https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/SAF-2017-IRS-990-Tax-Form.pdf
GOA tax info: Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica
Some asked if a local NRA rep would give a reply. In the front of 1st Freedom magazine, it lists phone numbers of several regional reps - I called, left a message last year, and the rep called me back.
Ackerman - McQueen? They are a PR/publishing/marketing firm the NRA uses for obvious purposes. The NRA is not in the PR/publishing/marketing business - they hire that out so they can focus on pro-2A work. And they are doing A LOT of that and everyone of us who likes the freedom to own firearms is benefiting greatly from their work.
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Apparently Jeff's dad was, or felt he was, treated badly by the big wigs at the NRA. Jeff may be legit, wanting nothing except for the NRA to reform, but it is also possible that he is unhappy about the treatment his dad got and is acting out of revenge. We don't know why he says what he does.
This is not the time in history for us to abandon our most powerful pro-2A rights group. Enemies of the 2A are orders of magnitude stronger now than ever before. We're in a fight for survival and we are getting whipped badly.
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That's the claim (85% actually I think) but when they say the provide 85% for program services, does that include overpaying for video production etc.? That's the issue with self-dealing, it calls into question whether that 85% figure is a true valuation of program services, or whether it is basically just marketing. Without an independent audit, we can't really know.
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No, we can't know - none of us - including those bashing the NRA. What we DO know with 100% certainty is, if we let the NRA falter at this time in history, we will watch as our guns are cut into pieces. This time, things really are different. I suspect many bashing the NRA are young and don't know how bad the situation is now compared to the past. Either that, or else we've flushed out some antis.
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I don't think that's quite fair. Money talks and ___ walks as they say. Well, if the money isn't talking where it needs to be talking, doesn't that actually harm the 2A, or at the minimum, fail to advance it as far as it should?
I think what many people are asking is whether we are getting value for our contributions today (history is history, now is now) and thinking about whether we could get more 2A bang for the buck elsewhere. That is at its core, an extremely pro-2A position by honest people who want to see as much of their hard earned donations as possible, go into defending and advancing the 2A. Many might disagree with those who choose this path on strategic grounds, but such people aren't "antis" by any definition.
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I agree. Money talks. $434 million from NRA. Roughly $8 million from SAF and GOA combined. 54 to 1 ratio. If it weren't for the NRA we would not be having this conversation - NWFA would not exist because none of us would own guns. We'd have a blonde female president - my link said the NRA supported our president to the tune of $30 million. Money talks. Kind of makes you wonder about the motives of people who are so adamant about bashing the NRA, huh?
Whether the NRA squanders a few tens of millions is of ZERO importance in the 2A fight. They are big enough that they still are our most important ally. The ONLY thing of importance is that we WIN. Without the NRA we will LOSE.
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"The ONLY thing of importance is that we WIN. Without the NRA we will LOSE."
That's the point.
SAF is great. GOA is a bunch of money grubbing bubblegumhats that is the only organization worse than the NRA in terms of begging. However they all do good work.
Pick your organization and give.
If you really want change though get more people shooting. Make shooters who vote. Telling people they're wrong is a fools errand
That's the point.
SAF is great. GOA is a bunch of money grubbing bubblegumhats that is the only organization worse than the NRA in terms of begging. However they all do good work.
Pick your organization and give.
If you really want change though get more people shooting. Make shooters who vote. Telling people they're wrong is a fools errand
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My father had an old adage: "Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear." And this has deeper meaning in today's world than it has ever. knox has a narrative, and a perspective, and an axe to grind, maybe a chip on his shoulder. Knox likely has a great deal of insight to lend as far as WPs deficiencies in running the NRA. I have my own gripes as a Life Member in how the NRA does things. I also have some gripes as a Patriot and a very strong supporter of the US Constitution, but there are four sides to each story and sometimes our ignorance own limited perspectives prevent us from understanding even the simplest of issues. In the end the NRA is US, and we need to press on. If Wayne Pierre cannot get the NRA out of the red, maybe he should step down. if anything, we should ensure the NRA never allows a single individual assume this much power and capital over the NRA. And we need to solidify NRAs adherence to Article VI within the US Constitution.
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I remember part of this story from the late 90's when I first started to buy my own guns and got into shooting.
I remember Neal Knox and some of his valid concerns. My opinion was that NEAL was a straight shooter with his words, concerns, etc. I do NOT think that NEAL was some bitter old man when he spoke about his concerns.
Some older men, long time AND lifetime NRA members, spoke about their concerns on many forums and in real time - face to face or on the telephone to me and to some of my gun buddies in my former state and long distance. Those old guys were NOT bitter old men because of their concerns and what NEAL spoke about.
I have written some things about the NRA from a to z, not a lot, but I did mention them on this forum and on old, long gone forums too.
I was a member of the NRA in the past.
I have given to many local and national pro gun groups in my former state and here out west. I still give to 'causes'.
My MT husband was a NRA member. I will not speak for him here and he is not a member of this forum.
We used to give to another pro gun group which I will not mention here for fear of being sued. We used to support that group and gave money to other causes tied into that group but we don't any longer. The reasons would be clear as day if I could talk freely and others who saw, heard and read what we did could be more open about it.
There are pro gun groups that will NOT stand up for pro gun people and, in fact, will HURT some pro gun causes and before, during and after legal trials that concern USE OF A GUN! Uh huh.
The NRA should be cleaned out and you do that by chopping the head off of the snake as the old saying goes. I am NOT talking about human decapitation in case someone wants to play that Kathy G. (UGH!) freak show game with my words.
I am not going back to list the various true stories on what the NRA has done or NOT done that I have seen up close and personal in my MT city and in the past from gun rights to candidates to marches to you name it when it comes to their unsolicited 'gifts' that you never asked for and they send you a BILL for crapola coins.
By the way, old man Bush, rather the first President Bush who recently died QUIT his NRA membership and was VERY OPEN ABOUT IT ALL in a speech that was ALL OVER the news, papers, boob tube, radio, etc. many years ago. That was when the NRA or Wayne (Ugh!) tried to lump many peace officers and .gov law enforcement officers into 'jack booted thugs'. I believe that President Bush was a life long member if my memory serves me right at the time that he quit them too. There are good and bad people in ALL professions.
Anyway, I think that the NRA should be cleaned up/cleaned out as I think many groups, orgs, charities, FOUNDATIONS (LOL), etc. should be cleaned up.
Support who you believe in. One or more places and keep active in your pro gun rights fight.
If you would rather GIVE your time, your ammo, and teach some people at your range - go for that.
Yours in liberty,
Cate
Gun Owners of America | The only no compromise gun lobby in Washington
PS: You can become a member or just give a GIFT to any pro gun group that you think will do a great job!
Many of us have taken people to the range, given gifts of ammunition, shared the love of guns, etc. That does HELP a lot in my not so humble opinion when it comes to pro gun rights.
Letters and calls do NOT always work but they can help sometimes. IT depends on WHO you are dealing with and on what level. Groups and individuals - local, state and national levels.
If you read forums much or check out a LOT of gun and GUN/LIBERTY political news on the WWWeb - the average GUN OWNER IS HIS/HER OWN WORST ENEMY! They can't stand or refuse to discuss some issues because of getting their feelings hurt.
Another thing is this. Yes, MANY sources can be biased or deceptive or suspicious but that does NOT mean that ALL of them are in all news stories including this one. Investigate it all. I would give other examples but it does NOT pertain to this specific NRA story. NOT allowed here.
"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams
I remember Neal Knox and some of his valid concerns. My opinion was that NEAL was a straight shooter with his words, concerns, etc. I do NOT think that NEAL was some bitter old man when he spoke about his concerns.
Some older men, long time AND lifetime NRA members, spoke about their concerns on many forums and in real time - face to face or on the telephone to me and to some of my gun buddies in my former state and long distance. Those old guys were NOT bitter old men because of their concerns and what NEAL spoke about.
I have written some things about the NRA from a to z, not a lot, but I did mention them on this forum and on old, long gone forums too.
I was a member of the NRA in the past.
I have given to many local and national pro gun groups in my former state and here out west. I still give to 'causes'.
My MT husband was a NRA member. I will not speak for him here and he is not a member of this forum.
We used to give to another pro gun group which I will not mention here for fear of being sued. We used to support that group and gave money to other causes tied into that group but we don't any longer. The reasons would be clear as day if I could talk freely and others who saw, heard and read what we did could be more open about it.
There are pro gun groups that will NOT stand up for pro gun people and, in fact, will HURT some pro gun causes and before, during and after legal trials that concern USE OF A GUN! Uh huh.
The NRA should be cleaned out and you do that by chopping the head off of the snake as the old saying goes. I am NOT talking about human decapitation in case someone wants to play that Kathy G. (UGH!) freak show game with my words.
I am not going back to list the various true stories on what the NRA has done or NOT done that I have seen up close and personal in my MT city and in the past from gun rights to candidates to marches to you name it when it comes to their unsolicited 'gifts' that you never asked for and they send you a BILL for crapola coins.
By the way, old man Bush, rather the first President Bush who recently died QUIT his NRA membership and was VERY OPEN ABOUT IT ALL in a speech that was ALL OVER the news, papers, boob tube, radio, etc. many years ago. That was when the NRA or Wayne (Ugh!) tried to lump many peace officers and .gov law enforcement officers into 'jack booted thugs'. I believe that President Bush was a life long member if my memory serves me right at the time that he quit them too. There are good and bad people in ALL professions.
Anyway, I think that the NRA should be cleaned up/cleaned out as I think many groups, orgs, charities, FOUNDATIONS (LOL), etc. should be cleaned up.
Support who you believe in. One or more places and keep active in your pro gun rights fight.
If you would rather GIVE your time, your ammo, and teach some people at your range - go for that.
Yours in liberty,
Cate
Gun Owners of America | The only no compromise gun lobby in Washington
PS: You can become a member or just give a GIFT to any pro gun group that you think will do a great job!
Many of us have taken people to the range, given gifts of ammunition, shared the love of guns, etc. That does HELP a lot in my not so humble opinion when it comes to pro gun rights.
Letters and calls do NOT always work but they can help sometimes. IT depends on WHO you are dealing with and on what level. Groups and individuals - local, state and national levels.
If you read forums much or check out a LOT of gun and GUN/LIBERTY political news on the WWWeb - the average GUN OWNER IS HIS/HER OWN WORST ENEMY! They can't stand or refuse to discuss some issues because of getting their feelings hurt.
Another thing is this. Yes, MANY sources can be biased or deceptive or suspicious but that does NOT mean that ALL of them are in all news stories including this one. Investigate it all. I would give other examples but it does NOT pertain to this specific NRA story. NOT allowed here.
"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams
I believe the NRA's deficiencies should be analyzed in an empirical way. The NRA needs to be executed out of the red into the green. Wayne LaPierre's actions need to be analyzed before judgment is cast. The NRA should ensure no executive is allowed to gain total control over the NRA other than to ensure Article VI within the US Constitution is being adhered to: and this should be controlled by a Congress with a Judicial Board within it: when constitutional matters come into play and a Congressional intervention is required, the vote should go out to voting members. The Executive can veto, and the Congressional Board can impeach is need be. Impeachment should be a member vote also.
Salary scales should be based on competitive salaries. I'm okay with the Executive getting a big salary as long as it's proportionate to other social/rights organizations. Retirement should be practical investment matches and not an unlimited contract.. This is a reality check of sorts.
We can't just rush to judgement. My Grandfather was a Voting Life Member++, and I am a Voting Life Patriot Member. I am also a CRSO/Instructor and am involved in a great deal more State and Local Club activities than NRA. I know for a fact that if it were not for the NRA (active members: like myself and many far more active) that we would not have any outdoor ranges in my state, and possibly very few indoor ranges. IF&W and NRA are big driving forces behind outdoor ranges here. When the libs caught onto the noise complaint excuse, they rode it hard, and they attempted to shut down many outdoor ranges at the town/city level and then fought it legally. The NRA was quietly there to help and we won a bunch of the battles and eventually the war.
The NRA is quietly working and preemptively fighting anti-gun legislation. But they are choosing their battles, which is a logical path considering they may be operating in the red. They can't afford to represent most criminal cases, and this emphasizes the importance of carry/defense insurance.
I would like to see the NRA analyzed and some practical changes: I would volunteer as a Data Scientist for Analysis, to assist if they are willing to pay for my travel and expenses. But we need to stay the course and remember we are NRA, and unless LaPierre refuses to take a transparent route at this point, we should continue to support the oldest and most influential group of gun supporters in the world. We really need to ensure NRA also adheres to Article VI within the US Constitution as Supreme Law of the Land. This is not being enforced at ALL levels of government as it is supposed to be. But we will never be able to get our house in order if we do not abide by law and order and the US Constitution. The support for bump-stock bans needs to be retracted. Any anti-gun compromise any infringement on the Second Amendment needs to be opposed unapologetically. The idea that the majority of NRA members support legislation and Judicial gerrymandering of the Second Amendment is absurd. Most of us viewed bump-stocks as gimmicky devices, and could care less bout their legality: but in the end it's an over-reach of government and entirely unconstitutional to confiscate them without reparations or grandfathering. I would go as far to say the BATFE (ATF) never had any authority to do anything other than regulate arms imports/exports and should be compartmentalized and downsized and put into constitutional check. Right now the Supreme Court is moving to enforce Article VI at many levels of government thanks to our fearless leader President Trump. I sincerely hope he reverses his executive decision and makes it right.
We all need to push for the enforcement of Article VI critically push the Supreme Court, and your local legislators to support Article VI enforcement and prevent the abuse of Judicial Branch by Leftist interest groups who are trying to promote support for big government and police state like over-reach. We can also take our savings out of anti-gun banks and move into pro-gun banks, that will hurt them where it counts. Most of the anti-gun funds come from big banks: they are funding disinformation and propaganda at a level I have never witnessed in my life until the past few years. If we did those two things, it would quiet anti-gunners down very quickly.
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CC,
Just a head's up: I'm still waiting for a response from the guy I said I'd contact (with the NRA) - It may be a few days as he always kinda slow to get an email response back from.
I'll keep you posted.
Just a head's up: I'm still waiting for a response from the guy I said I'd contact (with the NRA) - It may be a few days as he always kinda slow to get an email response back from.
I'll keep you posted.
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