Negligent discharge

[Certaindeaf]

You say potato, I say I didn't click.
And ignorance is 9/10 of the law!
pretty sure

 

[arcticrotwiler]

It's called individual interpretation of the definition of a word without knowing the true definition.

Of course, High speed low drag Operators don't make mistakes or have accidents. So the term Negligent Discharge was invented because it makes the person that discharged the gun sound like an untrained idiot.

Although in the OP story I'm gonna say this is accurate.

Never claimed I was quoting Webster's Dictionary definition. Yes, my "interpretation" and understanding of the definitions found in Black's Law Dictionary, Abridged 5th Ed., West Publishing Co. for Accidents (and there various forms) and Negligence (and its various forms).

 

[tac]

From sigforum today - Greece man accidentally killed at Penfield gun club identified

The late gentleman victim was the RCO at this event.

RIP.

 

[Koda]

heres a twist.

The only firearm accident thats not negligence is a slamfire, but only if the 4 rules were being followed.

 

[Kruel J]

Never claimed I was quoting Webster's Dictionary definition. Yes, my "interpretation" and understanding of the definitions found in Black's Law Dictionary, Abridged 5th Ed., West Publishing Co. for Accidents (and there various forms) and Negligence (and its various forms).

Copy that. My point was more that the terms are ALMOST interchangeable but the word "negligent" seems to imply some type of purposeful error or flat out carelessness. Which, interestingly enough, is also part of the definition of "accident".


Blah, it's all wordplay. Some say tomato, I say phuq it.

 

[Kruel J]

heres a twist.

The only firearm accident thats not negligence is a slamfire, but only if the 4 rules were being followed.

There are firearms that have known instances of discharging without a trigger pull. Rem 700, Sig P320, others. I personally witnessed a Rem 700 discharge off the bench at the rifle club you and I shoot at when the shooter was operating the safety mechanism. Nowhere near the trigger, pointed downrange on a Lead Sled. Not a slam fire so according to your statement it was negligent?

Some Sig P320's would fire if dropped (pre-recall). So do 70 series 1911's. EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ON THE PLANET has dropped something without meaning to. Again, is that negligent or an accident? See? Not so easy is it?

 

[Koda]

There are firearms that have known instances of discharging without a trigger pull. Rem 700, Sig P320, others. I personally witnessed a Rem 700 discharge off the bench at the rifle club you and I shoot at when the shooter was operating the safety mechanism. Nowhere near the trigger, pointed downrange on a Lead Sled. Not a slam fire so according to your statement it was negligent?

No that would be an accident in the similar manner of the slamfire, out of the operators control.
Its worth noting though, that all the 4 rules of gun safety were being followed.

So yeah your right there are more instances of true accidents than just slamfires.

 

[Kruel J]

No that would be an accident in the similar manner of the slamfire, out of the operators control.
Its worth noting though, that all the 4 rules of gun safety were being followed.

So yeah your right there are more instances of true accidents than just slamfires.

Accidents are going to happen, whether negligence was involved or not. Humans are humans, nobody is perfect. There are thousands of cases of LE and military personnel, who have arguably the most and best training available still having NDs. The keyboard tough guys that rant and rave about more training or how they would NEVER EVER make a mistake are amusing.

But again, the OP story? What an idiot.

 

[Koda]

Accidents are going to happen, whether negligence was involved or not.

Yup, Thats actually what my point is.

 

[Dinglenutz]

The military (or at least the Army) got away from using the term "Accidental Discharge" (AD) is such instances and went to calling it Negligent Discharge. Theory being, you train, practice, and are expected, as a professional Soldier, to manage your firearm at all times. Ergo you cannot have an accident.

I had an AD once, never an ND.

The AD came from a guy insisting I try his rifle at the range, so after he failed to take no thanks for an answer, I accepted the rifle (bolt), aimed downrange, and operated the bolt. The rifle immediately fired. The owner then said "oh, I've been working on the trigger, you have to close the bolt slower". I don't consider this an ND as such, although negligence on the part of the owner could be argued. Since it's not clearly an ND and I didn't intend to shoot quite yet, I consider this an AD.

Not real sure, but that's what I went with so far.

 

[arcticrotwiler]

I have had three slamfire incidents with my Ithaca mdl 37 (no injuries and rounds went in intended direction). I do not refer to them as AD. The first was when I learned you could slamfire an Ithaca - negligence on my part as a new gun owner who didn't know his sh*t. The next two were my laziness in not properly managing my trigger finger - negligent in improper or unsafe use.

I have also had a round go off in a rifle that I had been playing with the trigger on, in such a manner as that when I slammed the bolt forward, a round went off. Not sure how I'd call this... some of the instances above I would call neither AD or ND, but rather a weapons malfunction, but even a weapons malfunction can be negligent if not properly cared for/maintained or if modifications are made by untrained/uncertified persons (e.g. trigger mods). So I guess I would consider my rifle slamfire a ND since I did an act that cause the discharge to occur (modified the trigger without proper knowledge).

Bottom line is nobody cares if it was AD or ND unless someone dies, some injured, property damaged, or someone got the sh*t scared out of them.

 

[arcticrotwiler]

Accidents are going to happen, whether negligence was involved or not. Humans are humans, nobody is perfect. There are thousands of cases of LE and military personnel, who have arguably the most and best training available still having NDs. The keyboard tough guys that rant and rave about more training or how they would NEVER EVER make a mistake are amusing.

But again, the OP story? What an idiot.

Oddly enough, as I recall, most of our cases involved mishandling my MPs....who are responsible and handle weapons on an almost daily basis.

I was amused by the LTC(Ret) who was spouting about the need for training in order to purchase semi-auto rifles in WA. He was expounding on how, "Even the military trains for weeks before soldiers are allowed to fire the M16" (sic). What a crock!! I think we had a total BOI of 6 hours before getting on the range and 4 of that was on assembly and disassembly. Aside from how to assemble and disassemble an M16, the Army taught me nothing more about shooting accurately or safe weapons handling that I didn't learn from my parents.

 

[Kruel J]

Bottom line is nobody cares if it was AD or ND unless someone dies, some injured, property damaged, or someone got the sh*t scared out of them.

Agreed!

 

[baker3gun]

...The AD came from a guy insisting I try his rifle at the range, so after he failed to take no thanks for an answer, I accepted the rifle (bolt), aimed downrange, and operated the bolt. The rifle immediately fired. The owner then said "oh, I've been working on the trigger, you have to close the bolt slower". I don't consider this an ND as such, although negligence on the part of the owner could be argued. Since it's not clearly an ND and I didn't intend to shoot quite yet, I consider this an AD...

I've seen this myself.

The owner was prone, actuated bolt of bolt action rifle, it fired when he closed the bolt.
After some discussion, the RO picked up the rifle and repeated the exercise on purpose. It fired again.

Another way to skin that cat is to unload the magazine, then cycle the bolt, then try to pull the trigger. If it won't click, it's because it already 'fired' when the bolt was closed, because improper trigger work reduced spring force so much that the sear ledge failed to engage its opposing feature when the bolt was closed.

Moral - point guns in safe directions when you chamber.

Also,

I once chambered a CCI blue-plastic-tipped rat shot in a 10-22 by inserting the little round in through the little ejection port into the little chamber with my finger and thumb. In the hallway. Then I released the bolt which caused the gun to fire upon closing, which shot little holes in the sheetrock ceiling.
Probably because the round was not perfectly straight or fully seated, and therefore in a bind.
I repaired the damage with spackle and gave the ratshot to my neighbor.

Re argument over AD vs ND:
If it goes bang when expected, it is an expected discharge - ED I guess.
Everything else is undesirable, regardless of name.
Safe procedures prevent most ND/AD, and mitigate the outcomes of the remainder.

 

[NW Backpacker]

Always wondered this myself. Is it a "car accident" or "driving negligence". Seems to me a bit of wordplay.

It's "traffic violence".

At hearing on speed limit bills, lawmaker bristles at mention of 'traffic violence'

'Traffic violence' comes of age.

bikeportland.org

 

[XoXSciFiGuy]

As if the cop had never seen a Sig Sauer 40 cal pistol anyway. It's not like asking him if he wants to see a Colt Peacemaker from the Wild West days or something. Now THAT would be interesting. Sorry, but a Sig Sauer? Nice gun, sure. Also *yawn*.

The only time I ever had an accidental discharge was when I bought a used single-shot 12 gauge from a pawn shop back in the 80's. This cheap bubblegum thing from New England Arms I believe. I was out in the field and lowered the hammer on it very gently. It STILL went off. But it was pointed away, and up in the air. I took it back to the pawn shop the next day and told them to trash the thing. They refunded my money.

 

[GWS]

I say the deer was negligent.

What is it called when the tree jumps out in front of your car?

Well, first of all, Did the tree make a sound?