Neck turning Lapua brass - is it worth it?

[bsa1917hunter]

You're about to open a big barrel of worms.

I agree

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I certainly have read that custom barrels will generally yield much better accuracy than factory barrels, and I'm sure that, in general, it is a true statement. However, I have seen some videos of precision shooters getting horrible accuracy out of their super expensive custom barrels in their super expensive precision rifles as they try and work up a load for the gun.
I'm not sure what the attached photo says on the subject, but this is what Velzey was able to achieve with 4 shots of factory ammo at 100 yards out of my new factory barrel when he was sighting in my new Model 70 SG after mounting my new Zeiss scope. To be quite honest with you, that level of accuracy is a good enough enjoyment factor for me.

View attachment 544761

Again, you are putting far too much faith in a single 4 shot group. Shoot multiple 10 shot groups and youll have a better understanding of how that rifle is really going to behave.

 

[capdek]

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Whether or not neck turning will improve accuracy in your rifle depends a lot on your rifle and the chamber that is cut into it. Rifles that are chambered for neck turned brass benifit more from neck turning than those that are not. Barrel whip on a slim barrel will be more pronounced than on a heavy barrel.
While it is true that making the neck of the brass the same size all the way around will help center the cartridge better in the chamber, some chambers are cut off center at the factory and there is nothing short of cutting off the back of the barrel and re-chambering it that will change that.
Most factory rifles have a chamber cut for brass that is not turned, so turning the brass for factory rifles will not likely make much difference in accuracy.
If you are going to turn the necks it is usually a good idea to shoot the brrass at least a couple of times before you turn it. As you shoot each round small amounts of brass will migrate from the body and shoulder up into the neck. That is the time to measure neck thickness, not when the brass is new. It would be equally important to make sure all the cartridges are the same length so that the bullets leave the case at the same time so they are all going the same speed when they hit the lands. Uniformity is a key to accuracy. Make everything exactly the same, or as close as possible. After that, making sure the bullets are loaded straight in the cases is one more variable you will want to check. Hornady and some other companies make gages to check for run out. If you did everything else right but the bullet is not loaded straight in the case you will have a problem with accuracy there as well. I hope that was not too much information all at once.
Feel free to PM me if something I said was not clear.

I was able to find a used Hornady concentricity gauge here for $50 so I scooped it up. So, I'm covered on that front.

Looking at some of the feedback that suggests I'm wasting my time with this, perhaps I should clarify how this whole neck turning question got started. Please bear with me.

When I looked at buying my first bolt-action rifle, I naturally looked at factory guns. I decided on the Winchester Model 70 Super Grade because both the wife and I are suckers for good wood and glossy blue steel (she's an equal partner in this). It is a very high quality factory gun with a long and rich American heritage, and we were not terribly interested in pursuing the somewhat stressful, high-priced competition shooting game - at least not yet. Basically, we wanted a high quality factory rifle that's accurate, looks good, is fun to shoot and could be used for the occasional hunting trip. And we decided on the 7mm-08 because I already have some familiarity with the .308 (I have a Springfield M1A in .308), you can get the M70 SG today in that caliber (unlike the 6.5mm cartridge everybody seems to rave about), and my wife liked the idea of a bit less recoil (she's a damn good rifle shooter - better than me on average).

But only a moron would not want to get the best accuracy possible from their new rifle - no matter what it is. It's not going to be very much fun going out and never be able to do better than MOA at 100 yards. But based on our research, including some excellent YouTube videos from GunBlue490, most factory guns should be able to shoot MOA right out of the box. Given the price point of the Win M70 SG, we felt pretty confident we could expect this from our new rifle. And it is much prettier than the Tikka T3 - at least in my wife's opinion (and you should never downplay the WAF ).

We brought our new rifle to Velzey to mount our new scope and give the gun a thorough going over. Velzey was able to confirm an excellent bore and chamber with an extremely solid bedding job - it was a definite keeper. So we decided to splurge a bit and switched out the factory MOA trigger for a lighter Timney trigger. And you've already seen a photo Velzey took during the sighting in process. So we knew this rifle was capable of excellent accuracy with high quality factory ammo. And we've been able to confirm that.

Well right off the bat, pretty much everyone here said factory ammo is not very consistent so you should seriously consider reloading for your new rifle. OK, that sounds like fun - I already have experience reloading for my .38 Supercomp racegun, our Colt SAA cowboy guns and our beautiful 38-40 and 44-40 Winchester Model 1892 lever guns.

Well, the first thing I learned is that my Dillon RL550 is probably not the best choice for producing a relatively small number of high quality bottleneck rifle cartridges. So the hunt was on for a new press.

After doing a lot of research - something that everyone seems to agree is a good thing to do before tackling the whole reloading endeavor - I decided on a Redding T7 turret press because:

• I was used to a progressive type press,
• the reviews were very good and guys like Jeff Brozovich and Sam Millard are using this press, and
• the Forster Co-Ax is essentially unobtainium.

The next question is what dies should you use? Should you full length resize? Should you neck size only? Should you bump the shoulders of your cases? If you neck size, should you use a bushing die or collet die? If you use a bushing die, should you also use an expander?

And what are the factors that yield high quality hand loaded ammunition? Of course, everyone seems to agree your choice of bullet, powder and powder charge are the most important factors. Once you nail these down, the goal should then be consistency - consistent bullet weights, powder charges, case volume...

Ah, the somewhat neglected cartridge case now enters the mix.

Well, everyone swears by Lapua so that seemed like a good choice for brass. Then you start reading about things like runout, consistent primer pockets and flash holes, and consistent neck thickness.

And now you see how this thread got started.

Now some of you are going to say "but all this stuff really only matters if you're using one of those heavy barrel, 21st century, super-duper precision rifles - just get a simple single stage Lee press, a set of Lee dies and you're good to go for your 'factory' rifle".

Well, even though the wife and I decided on a 'factory' rifle, that doesn't mean I don't give a crap about quality and accuracy. I'm a full-blown perfectionist - always have been. And I really enjoy the whole concept of reloading and striving for the best accuracy possible out of whatever gun I have.

And please don't assume from my comment above that I think Lee products are crap or something. I am totally convinced all the reloading suppliers - Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Hornady, Redding, Forster, LE Wilson, K&M and others - all make very good quality products. But my research has clearly shown certain preferences for certain tools that run across the entire set of manufacturers.

Is it possible I won't notice a damn bit of difference between the most basic Lee setup and a top-of-the-line Redding solution in my factory rifle? Perhaps. But I really don't care. Since I have no experience to judge by, I will judiciously pick the tools from any of the above manufacturers that most serious shooters - people like you - are using to their advantage. Basically, I enjoy learning about the whole reloading process. It gives me something interesting and fun to do on crappy weekends. And with the great feedback I'm getting, I know I will be able to achieve the best accuracy possible out of this rifle that has all the potential to be a very accurate rifle. Moreover, I'll have a solid setup if we ever decide to get one of those high-end precision rifles down the road.

And to close, I have learned one thing for sure from all the excellent feedback that's been presented here - I'm not likely to get much bang for my buck by neck turning my Lapua brass - regardless of the type of rifle I have.

Thanks for listening.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Sounds good, except for your last statement. The reason most of us are saying its not necessary is because you are loading for a factory hunting rifle. This is not a high dollar benchrest rifle, in which case youll want to do everything you can to keep up with the competition. If you've ever shot any form of benchrest, youd know what im talking about. Theres a reason those guys and rifles shoot into the consistent .2's. They have precisely machined chambers and those guys know their exact dimensions, where they strive for about .002" neck clearance and they develop absurdly straight ammo, run their bullets through junenke machines, that test concentricity. The list goes on and on, as to why these things matter greatly in a benchrest rifle, and reasons to not go to these extremes in a factory "hunting" rifle. There are a lot of hunters here that have been handloading for a long time and most of us will tell you that when loading for a hunting rifle, priority #1 is always reliability. Every round has to chamber effortlessly and safely, then its accuracy. We are not trying to burst your bubble here, just trying to state the reasons why it may not be the best option for a hunting rifle. If you dont understand this now, you will after years of hunting and competition type shooting under your belt.

 

[capdek]

Sounds good, except for your last statement. The reason most of us are saying its not necessary is because you are loading for a factory hunting rifle. This is not a high dollar benchrest rifle, in which case youll want to do everything you can to keep up with the competition. If you've ever shot any form of benchrest, youd know what im talking about. Theres a reason those guys and rifles shoot into the consistent .2's. They have precisely machined chambers and those guys know their exact dimensions, where they strive for about .002" neck clearance and they develop absurdly straight ammo, run their bullets through junenke machines, that test concentricity. The list goes on and on, as to why these things matter greatly in a benchrest rifle, and reasons to not go to these extremes in a factory "hunting" rifle. There are a lot of hunters here that have been handloading for a long time and most of us will tell you that when loading for a hunting rifle, priority #1 is always reliability. Every round has to chamber effortlessly and safely, then its accuracy. We are not trying to burst your bubble here, just trying to state the reasons why it may not be the best option for a hunting rifle. If you dont understand this now, you will after years of hunting and competition type shooting under your belt.

The consistent feedback appears to be that you will likely have to neck turn if you have a very tight custom chamber.
However, even Sam Millard of Panhandle Precision says that he doesn't bother with neck turning if his TIN (learned a new acronym here which I assume stands for Thickness Interior Neck) varies by less than 0.002" (see his numerous YouTube videos - he certainly appears to be one very serious long-range hunter and competitive target shooter). And it would seem practically all Lapua brass can be counted on to meet this requirement. Hence no neck turning needed with Lapua brass and any rifle with a SAAMI spec chamber.

And no, I have not done any bench rest type of shooting - at least not formally. The wife and I have taken our new rifle out a number of times to the 100 yard range at TCGC and used either a Caldwell Tack Driver bag (my preference) or our new Bald Eagle shooting rest (my wife's preference) on one of the shooting benches to test our factory ammo, practice our shooting skills and have some fun with the new rifle. We have not quite been able to put more than 4 shots essentially into one hole, but we have been able to maintain consistent 1/4" groups of ten or more shots with Winchester BST and Nosler BT factory ammo if we take our time and don't screw up.

 

[DizzyJ]

I was able to find a used Hornady concentricity gauge here for $50 so I scooped it up. So, I'm covered on that front.

Looking at some of the feedback that suggests I'm wasting my time with this, perhaps I should clarify how this whole neck turning question got started. Please bear with me.

When I looked at buying my first bolt-action rifle, I naturally looked at factory guns. I decided on the Winchester Model 70 Super Grade because both the wife and I are suckers for good wood and glossy blue steel (she's an equal partner in this). It is a very high quality factory gun with a long and rich American heritage, and we were not terribly interested in pursuing the somewhat stressful, high-priced competition shooting game - at least not yet. Basically, we wanted a high quality factory rifle that's accurate, looks good, is fun to shoot and could be used for the occasional hunting trip. And we decided on the 7mm-08 because I already have some familiarity with the .308 (I have a Springfield M1A in .308), you can get the M70 SG today in that caliber (unlike the 6.5mm cartridge everybody seems to rave about), and my wife liked the idea of a bit less recoil (she's a damn good rifle shooter - better than me on average).

But only a moron would not want to get the best accuracy possible from their new rifle - no matter what it is. It's not going to be very much fun going out and never be able to do better than MOA at 100 yards. But based on our research, including some excellent YouTube videos from GunBlue490, most factory guns should be able to shoot MOA right out of the box. Given the price point of the Win M70 SG, we felt pretty confident we could expect this from our new rifle. And it is much prettier than the Tikka T3 - at least in my wife's opinion (and you should never downplay the WAF ).

We brought our new rifle to Velzey to mount our new scope and give the gun a thorough going over. Velzey was able to confirm an excellent bore and chamber with an extremely solid bedding job - it was a definite keeper. So we decided to splurge a bit and switched out the factory MOA trigger for a lighter Timney trigger. And you've already seen a photo Velzey took during the sighting in process. So we knew this rifle was capable of excellent accuracy with high quality factory ammo. And we've been able to confirm that.

Well right off the bat, pretty much everyone here said factory ammo is not very consistent so you should seriously consider reloading for your new rifle. OK, that sounds like fun - I already have experience reloading for my .38 Supercomp racegun, our Colt SAA cowboy guns and our beautiful 38-40 and 44-40 Winchester Model 1892 lever guns.

Well, the first thing I learned is that my Dillon RL550 is probably not the best choice for producing a relatively small number of high quality bottleneck rifle cartridges. So the hunt was on for a new press.

After doing a lot of research - something that everyone seems to agree is a good thing to do before tackling the whole reloading endeavor - I decided on a Redding T7 turret press because:

• I was used to a progressive type press,
• the reviews were very good and guys like Jeff Brozovich and Sam Millard are using this press, and
• the Forster Co-Ax is essentially unobtainium.

The next question is what dies should you use? Should you full length resize? Should you neck size only? Should you bump the shoulders of your cases? If you neck size, should you use a bushing die or collet die? If you use a bushing die, should you also use an expander?

And what are the factors that yield high quality hand loaded ammunition? Of course, everyone seems to agree your choice of bullet, powder and powder charge are the most important factors. Once you nail these down, the goal should then be consistency - consistent bullet weights, powder charges, case volume...

Ah, the somewhat neglected cartridge case now enters the mix.

Well, everyone swears by Lapua so that seemed like a good choice for brass. Then you start reading about things like runout, consistent primer pockets and flash holes, and consistent neck thickness.

And now you see how this thread got started.

Now some of you are going to say "but all this stuff really only matters if you're using one of those heavy barrel, 21st century, super-duper precision rifles - just get a simple single stage Lee press, a set of Lee dies and you're good to go for your 'factory' rifle".

Well, even though the wife and I decided on a 'factory' rifle, that doesn't mean I don't give a crap about quality and accuracy. I'm a full-blown perfectionist - always have been. And I really enjoy the whole concept of reloading and striving for the best accuracy possible out of whatever gun I have.

And please don't assume from my comment above that I think Lee products are crap or something. I am totally convinced all the reloading suppliers - Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Hornady, Redding, Forster, LE Wilson, K&M and others - all make very good quality products. But my research has clearly shown certain preferences for certain tools that run across the entire set of manufacturers.

Is it possible I won't notice a damn bit of difference between the most basic Lee setup and a top-of-the-line Redding solution in my factory rifle? Perhaps. But I really don't care. Since I have no experience to judge by, I will judiciously pick the tools from any of the above manufacturers that most serious shooters - people like you - are using to their advantage. Basically, I enjoy learning about the whole reloading process. It gives me something interesting and fun to do on crappy weekends. And with the great feedback I'm getting, I know I will be able to achieve the best accuracy possible out of this rifle that has all the potential to be a very accurate rifle. Moreover, I'll have a solid setup if we ever decide to get one of those high-end precision rifles down the road.

And to close, I have learned one thing for sure from all the excellent feedback that's been presented here - I'm not likely to get much bang for my buck by neck turning my Lapua brass - regardless of the type of rifle I have.

Thanks for listening.

Everything you've said I agree with except for the last sentence, which, has been addressed.

I think what we're saying, is with accuracy like you've got with that factory ammo, you're unlikely to do better by re-creating your own and neck turning for your circumstances.

Now, change out any of those components, and you'll probably see a benefit from hand loading. And yes, get the best you can afford based on what you have to work with and what you want to achieve. When reloading for accuracy, you want to be as precise and just as important, as consistent as possible. We are trying to make consistently good ammo by eliminating as many variables as possible. The way you can check this is by being able to measure different aspects such as base to ogive, runout/concentricity, weight, neck tension, etc etc etc.

Then of course comes the nut behind the trigger, which, is usually the weak link in the system.

I'd highly recommend taking a precision rifle class, or get instruction from someone who can help you with technique if you're not where you want to be.

I've been lucky to have been instructed by some very talented individuals, but also know I'm far from perfect. Regardless you must be confident in your abilities or the loads you create will be for naught.

I also applaud you for coming here and doing your research with an open mind for feedback. This is a hard thing for the male species to do. Don't ask me how I know

 

[Otter]

LOL, you are so hooked. May as well go ahead and get the neck turning tools now and give those Lapua brass a 75% skim turn. Sounds like you will be doing it soon enough anyway.

I shoot at TCGC on the weekends - usually show up around 8 a.m. though while the wind isn't blowing so bad. I have some tight neck target rifles I would let you shoot if you are interested. I'm usually at one end or the other on the 100 yard range. Shoot a target rifle with a 2 oz trigger and you will never be the same.

 

[DizzyJ]

LOL, you are so hooked. May as well go ahead and get the neck turning tools now and give those Lapua brass a 75% skim turn. Sounds like you will be doing it soon enough anyway.

I shoot at TCGC on the weekends - usually show up around 8 a.m. though while the wind isn't blowing so bad. I have some tight neck target rifles I would let you shoot if you are interested. I'm usually at one end or the other on the 100 yard range. Shoot a target rifle with a 2 oz trigger and you will never be the same.

Trying to corrupt him early on I see...

 

[capdek]

Thanks! Yes, I'm horribly hooked. I haven't given one thought about my other firearms since we got this new bolt gun - it is so addictive!
And you can probably imagine how much it means to me to see how much my wife enjoys shooting this new rifle.
I think what really did me in was watching Sam Millard of Panhandle Precision out with his boy shooting natural targets at distances anywhere from 600 to over 1300 yards. That is so fricken cool!
I've now had an opportunity to dig deeper into his whole reloading series of videos and I can't stress enough how much respect and admiration I have for this guy. At the end of the day, this is the guy I want to emulate when it comes to shooting bolt guns for accuracy and fun - at least until I start missing time with my other guns. And I've also developed a great deal of respect and admiration for GunBlue490. It was this gentleman that convinced me that a Model 70 can be a very accurate and fun first bolt gun, and to joyfully take on the task of reloading for our new rifle. And of course all the great feedback I've been getting from so many people here who've lived and breathed this stuff for much much longer than me.
Perhaps I did get a bit carried away with the whole reloading thing given where our M70 actually sits on the precision rifle spectrum, but can you guys really fault me? This whole experience is supremely enjoyable and certainly one of the best I've had in some time. At the end of the day, I am discovering how much the wife and I enjoy the concept and challenge of precision shooting, that we love our new first ever bolt action rifle to death in spite of its theoretical limitations, and that it's probably just a matter of time before we're adding an even more capable bolt action rifle to the collection.

 

[capdek]

Bye-the-way, here is a video from GunBlue490 that got me first thinking about neck turning and looking for further guidance here on the subject.
It is an excellent video and I think it captures more or less what I've now been able to confirm. Keep in mind, however, that the video does impart the very slightest implication you may get a tiny bit of improved accuracy in your factory rifle by taking off any high spots on the case neck.

 

[DizzyJ]

Bye-the-way, here is a video from GunBlue490 that got me first thinking about neck turning and looking for further guidance here on the subject.
It is an excellent video and I think it captures more or less what I've now been able to confirm. Keep in mind, however, that the video does impart the very slightest implication you may get a tiny bit of improved accuracy in your factory rifle by taking off any high spots on the case neck.

Cool video.

 

[DizzyJ]

I watch a few other of his videos too. Seems to know what he's talking about.

I think you're really going to like that precision reloading book.

 

[capdek]

I watch a few other of his videos too. Seems to know what he's talking about.

I think you're really going to like that precision reloading book.

I received the book yesterday, read the introduction and skimmed through the rest of it. The info in this book is exactly what I was looking for that wasn't being covered in my Sierra and Nosler reloading manuals. And even Richard Lee's book, which I picked up based on GunBlue490's recommendation, doesn't cover the material in Mr. McPherson's book. So it was definitely money well spent!

Thanks a bunch Dizzyj for the recommendation and link to this book. I really appreciate it!

 

[DizzyJ]

I received the book yesterday, read the introduction and skimmed through the rest of it. The info in this book is exactly what I was looking for that wasn't being covered in my Sierra and Nosler reloading manuals. And even Richard Lee's book, which I picked up based on GunBlue490's recommendation, doesn't cover the material in Mr. McPherson's book. So it was definitely money well spent!

Thanks a bunch Dizzyj for the recommendation and link to this book. I really appreciate it!

Of course. Glad you'll get good use out of it!

 

[bsa1917hunter]

The consistent feedback appears to be that you will likely have to neck turn if you have a very tight custom chamber.
However, even Sam Millard of Panhandle Precision says that he doesn't bother with neck turning if his TIN (learned a new acronym here which I assume stands for Thickness Interior Neck) varies by less than 0.002" (see his numerous YouTube videos - he certainly appears to be one very serious long-range hunter and competitive target shooter). And it would seem practically all Lapua brass can be counted on to meet this requirement. Hence no neck turning needed with Lapua brass and any rifle with a SAAMI spec chamber.

And no, I have not done any bench rest type of shooting - at least not formally. The wife and I have taken our new rifle out a number of times to the 100 yard range at TCGC and used either a Caldwell Tack Driver bag (my preference) or our new Bald Eagle shooting rest (my wife's preference) on one of the shooting benches to test our factory ammo, practice our shooting skills and have some fun with the new rifle. We have not quite been able to put more than 4 shots essentially into one hole, but we have been able to maintain consistent 1/4" groups of ten or more shots with Winchester BST and Nosler BT factory ammo if we take our time and don't screw up.

This is a bold statement that I honestly keep coming back to. I realize this is the internet and I'm not about to chit on your thread, but a guy has to be HONEST here, as all of my posts are. 100 percent honest. If not, you have nothing of validity to offer. What I have to say about this statement is that I've shot against some damn good shooters in my time, but none of them can consistently keep 10 or more shots into "1/4 inch, not even at 100 yards and some hard pressed to do it at 50 yards. There's also some very interesting online shoots, where you assume guys are keeping their posts honest as well. One in particular over at ARFCOM, they have what they call the "moa all day challenge" where they shoot 5 targets on the same piece of paper and put 5 shots into each target and then average out their scores. The owner of Larue Tactical, is the high score champ in the AR division there with a score of something like 3/8" average for 5 groups of 5 shots each. The bolt action division also has a 5 group average of .362". This is not 10 shot groups. Those of us that have shot 10 shot groups know there is a big difference there. Groups open up with each consecutive shot. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. There's also a shoot going on over at 24hrcampfire, called the "moa all day long challenge", the high score right now is .537". We have 8 guys (and 20,700 views) that have proven their rifles and themselves are "moa all day long". So for a factory sporter weight hunting rifle and shooter to shoot 1/4" ("consistent 1/4" 10 shot groups) basically right out of the box, that's unheard of. There are world class shooters that can't do better than that and you say both you and your wife are that capable. My hat goes off to both of you, for you are better than what I've personally seen in real life. I'm like the rest of these guys that say you should buy as many boxes of that ammo as you can. You may be hard pressed to be able to handload anything that remarkable. I also suggest you join some clubs and enter that rifle and your wife into some benchrest matches. ron here does some highpower shooting, maybe he can help get you lined up with some people to meet and get you into a good club. Good luck with your venture and be safe shooting...

 

[capdek]

Have we ever been able to put all ten shots in a row into precisely a 1/4" group without screwing up? No. Of course we will see a few shots outside that pattern that occur over roughly 10 rounds, but we are pretty darn sure it is our fault and not the guns fault.
My wife, who is a better rifle shooter than me, has personally put 6 shots in a row into a 1/4" group (based on visual inspection only) over a roughly 5 minute time period (I didn't actually time it - this is an estimate) without making a mistake. She then had one shot fall noticeably outside the group with the next 3 shots back in the group, and she's pretty sure the one outlier was her fault and not the guns fault. And, as indicated above, when I say 1/4" group, I determined that with a simple visual inspection. I suppose it could have been closer to a 3/8" inch group, but I didn't have a pair of calipers with me to check that closely.
Should I have been more careful and precise with my comments? It appears so, since at least one person here seems very sensitive to not only a rifle's accuracy but a writer's accuracy as well. And since this was the best outing I can remember observing, I suppose I should have been more careful when I included the word 'consistent'.
So I am going to now say what it appears I should have said when it seems I was being a bit too cavalier with my comments.
I have personally seen my wife put 6 shots in a row into what appears to be a 1/4" group - and almost certainly less than a 3/8" group - over a roughly 5 minute time period with this rifle. I can't honestly remember if she did it with the 140g Win BSTs or the 140g Nosler BTs. Since we are not competitive target shooters, we never wrote those details down. We were simply out shooting the new rifle for fun and enjoyment.
I thought this whole discussion was about creating very accurate ammunition for what appears to be a very accurate factory rifle. Assuming my wife is telling the truth, which I completely believe, this particular outing proved in my mind at least that our new factory rifle is capable of 1/4" accuracy - or extremely close to 1/4" accuracy - over ten shots with high quality factory ammo if the shooter takes their time and doesn't screw up.
Sorry about the confusion.
Thanks again to all of you for the help and good advice.

 

[Otter]

If your rifle is shooting 1/4 inch groups, you should post pictures of them. I'm excited to see them.