Neck turning Lapua brass - is it worth it?

[Greenbug]

Neck turning your Lapua brass for your factory Winchester rifle would be like hiring Kapernick to teach Brady how to be a better quarterback.

I venture to guess that neck turning your brass will most likely degrade the accuracy you are currently getting with factory ammo. Learn to recognize a good thing when you've got it, spend the money on more of that factory stuff.

 

[BigGame]

My personal short answer to your question is no, I would not worry about neck turning for a hunting rifle when using Lapua (or ADG) brass.

One suggestion for you: Look up the Panhandle Precision website, or just go straight to YouTube and look up their set of videos there. They have a series called "Precision Rifle Development Series." He's giving instructions for high-performance, high-accuracy, long-range (800-1000 yards) hunting loads. If you're interested in the finer aspects of loading for accuracy (even if you're not planning to shoot long range), but still keeping a hunting aspect in mind (rather than bench shooting), I think you'll appreciate the series.

 

[BigGame]

Precision Rifle Development Series

I should have added above that I suggest this video series because I recall he speaks to the question of to-neck-turn or not-to-neck-turn. I can't recall exactly which video in the series covered the point.

 

[capdek]

Wow, thanks everyone. Lot's of useful feedback here. Basically, it looks like I shouldn't worry about neck turning - especially if it might negatively impact my rifle's accuracy. And I really didn't plan to go down the annealing path. Basically, my reloading plan for optimal accuracy was to follow the following process:

1. Purchase new Lapua or Nosler brass.
2. Inspect the brass for consistency.
   
3. Possibly neck turn the cases that exceed a specified variance (the reason for this thread).
4. Either full length size, or
5. Separately neck size for optimal concentricity and body size for optimal chamber fit.
6. Trim cases if needed.
7. Work up a load, load the cases for 'optimal' OAL and shoot them.
8. Inspect the fired brass for safety and malleability,
9. Go to step 4, or
10. Toss the brass if it looks unsafe or needs annealing and go to step 1.

Based on the feedback I've received, it seems that most believe I can skip step 3.

The only caveat I would like to bring up again is what I said at the start regarding the thread I found from 2011 where deadshot2 found a definite benefit to neck turning for his factory rifle. Here is what he said:

"I neck turn all my brass after it is shot once. This evens out the thickness and I don't find this condition again as long as I keep the brass. Neck turning also gives a more uniform neck tension if all cases in a group have the same thickness from round to round.
Since I don't have a custom chamber and don't have a specific dimension to maintain, I merely set my neck turning tool to "even out" or as some have said, "knock off the bumps". The results are great. With a Factory Stock Rifle I have consistently shot groups of less than 1/4" at 100 yards with similar results out to 300 yards."

The only thing he fails to mention is the 'quality' of the brass he started with.

Bye-the-way, I did stumble on one of the Panhandle Precision videos. I will dig into his set of videos to learn more - perhaps see what he says about turning versus not turning. From the one video I saw, it's obvious the guy is pretty serious about his shooting, so I'm sure I can learn quite a bit from his videos.

I do have another question related to step 7 in my reloading process if that's OK.

I measured the OAL to the lands of my rifle with a 140 grain Nosler BT bullet and the average was about 2.975" depending on how consistently I pushed the bullet up to the lands. Based on what I've read, you would typically want to set your bullet seating depth to stay between 0.020" and 0.040" off the lands. That would mean setting my seating depth to achieve an OAL between 2.935" and 2.955". Now according to SAAMI specs, the max OAL for the 7mm-08 is 2.800". This max OAL is significantly shorter than the 'optimal' OAL for my rifle.

My question is should I use a bullet seating depth to not exceed the max OAL SAAMI spec of 2.800" or can I go ahead and load my rounds 0.135" to 0.155" longer to reach the OAL that's supposed to be 'optimal' for my rifle? From what I've read, the max OAL SAAMI spec is more related to magazine length than 'safety' related. However, increasing OAL will decrease seating depth which will increase case capacity, and it seems likely this will have an effect on the recommended powder charges for particular bullet weights found in the reloading manuals. Basically, I want to make sure my hand loads are both safe and accurate.

Anyway, thanks again for all the great feedback!

 

[Goosebrown]

OAL is really only important for magazine feeding and not always then. If you are measuring to get the ogive of the bullets .020" off the lands that is ok for YOUR rifle. You may also find it wants more or less as you do your load development. I have one rifle that wants the bullets at the lands.

Nosler brass SEEMS like a dream and it is beautifully prepped and weighed out. I use it in my 204. However the actual metal is softer than Lapua and you may tend to lose primer pockets. Lapua metal is a little different from most and is VERY long lived. I have more than 20 reloads on most of mine.

In my book Lapua brass is better than any other over time.

Additional case size does not mean you should load more powder BTW. Do your development using the book and follow that.

The only thing with minimal seating depth you may find is that there isn't as much of the case Neck to keep the bullets concentric to the case and by extension the throat of the rifle when loaded. Longer necks aid concentricity. Get a really good seater die and that minimizes it.

 

[DizzyJ]

OAL is really only important for magazine feeding and not always then. If you are measuring to get the ogive of the bullets .020" off the lands that is ok for YOUR rifle. You may also find it wants more or less as you do your load development. I have one rifle that wants the bullets at the lands.

Nosler brass SEEMS like a dream and it is beautifully prepped and weighed out. I use it in my 204. However the actual metal is softer than Lapua and you may tend to lose primer pockets. Lapua metal is a little different from most and is VERY long lived. I have more than 20 reloads on most of mine.

In my book Lapua brass is better than any other over time.

Additional case size does not mean you should load more powder BTW. Do your development using the book and follow that.

The only thing with minimal seating depth you may find is that there isn't as much of the case Neck to keep the bullets concentric to the case and by extension the throat of the rifle when loaded. Longer necks aid concentricity. Get a really good seater die and that minimizes it.

Well said.

If I may, I'd like to recommend a precision reloading book. It's one I've found extremely helpful and easy to read and understand. I believe it will answer all of your questions, and many more you don't even realize you have!

Smoking price too!

Metallic Cartridge Handloading : Pursuit of the Perfect Cartridge by Mic McPherson (2013, Paperback) | eBay

 

[Herb g]

Interesting discussion. Wish OP had shown the target before I suffered hoof-mouth about of the shelf rifles. I were you - get the lot# off the box and buy all you can afford. Even with all the advise, you will probably do what you want to do anyway. Youngsters always have to find out for themselves. No offense for being young ( thinking about reloading), just how human nature works.

 

[BigGame]

I like where you're going and the fact that you're doing a lot of research first. I recommend keeping that up.

A few comments on the process you described for yourself:

1) You gauged the distance to lands in your rifle using a 140 grain Nosler BT (and presumable a modified case you bought off the shelf). Keep in mind that the distance you measured is particular to that bullet and is likely to change with other bullets. This is because the ogive shape will differ by bullet (so the distance to where the bullet contacts the lands will differ). Keep that measurement recorded for that specific bullet and perform the same measurement for each bullet you intend to use.

2) That modified case you bought off the shelf is handy, but keep in mind that it will likely not be the exact same length as your actual chamber, so your measurement will be off a bit. That's not a problem. Measure the modified case from base to shoulder using the proper headspace gauge. Then measure several of your fire formed cases in the same way, taking an average. You'll likely find that your fire formed cases are a tiny bit longer than the modified case (maybe 0.003, or something). Record this number. You'll want to add it to the measurement you took using the modified case to get the actual length from base (of your chamber) to the lands. That brings me to my last point.

3) Fire forming. Personally, I don't do much load development until I'm working with fire formed cases. Some may disagree, but I think you're only getting limited data using new brass, so I typically fire them all before getting serious about anything. If you're using good brass (you have Lapua, it's good), and it will chamber in your rifle fine the way it is (measure it), then I simply load up a lower-end load using cheaper bullets and fire form all of the new cases. Seat the bullet so the rounds comfortably fit your magazine (you can use the measurement you already have to ensure you're not into the lands). If it's a new rifle, you can use this time to break in your barrel. If it's a new scope, you can use this time to adjust your zero and run a tracking test to see how far your elevation truly changes when you dial it up 10 MOA. There are perhaps one or two other little things you might do, but I wouldn't get too carried away. Just fire form the brass and take it slowly, so as not to damage your barrel by firing too much, too quickly (i.e., let the barrel cool regularly throughout). Personally, I also clean the barrel a lot during an extended firing of several rounds, too.

Once you've done all of that and have fire formed cases, then you're ready to start on your list toward load development.

 

[DizzyJ]

I like where you're going and the fact that you're doing a lot of research first. I recommend keeping that up.

A few comments on the process you described for yourself:

1) You gauged the distance to lands in your rifle using a 140 grain Nosler BT (and presumable a modified case you bought off the shelf). Keep in mind that the distance you measured is particular to that bullet and is likely to change with other bullets. This is because the ogive shape will differ by bullet (so the distance to where the bullet contacts the lands will differ). Keep that measurement recorded for that specific bullet and perform the same measurement for each bullet you intend to use.

2) That modified case you bought off the shelf is handy, but keep in mind that it will likely not be the exact same length as your actual chamber, so your measurement will be off a bit. That's not a problem. Measure the modified case from base to shoulder using the proper headspace gauge. Then measure several of your fire formed cases in the same way, taking an average. You'll likely find that your fire formed cases are a tiny bit longer than the modified case (maybe 0.003, or something). Record this number. You'll want to add it to the measurement you took using the modified case to get the actual length from base (of your chamber) to the lands. That brings me to my last point.

3) Fire forming. Personally, I don't do much load development until I'm working with fire formed cases. Some may disagree, but I think you're only getting limited data using new brass, so I typically fire them all before getting serious about anything. If you're using good brass (you have Lapua, it's good), and it will chamber in your rifle fine the way it is (measure it), then I simply load up a lower-end load using cheaper bullets and fire form all of the new cases. Seat the bullet so the rounds comfortably fit your magazine (you can use the measurement you already have to ensure you're not into the lands). If it's a new rifle, you can use this time to break in your barrel. If it's a new scope, you can use this time to adjust your zero and run a tracking test to see how far your elevation truly changes when you dial it up 10 MOA. There are perhaps one or two other little things you might do, but I wouldn't get too carried away. Just fire form the brass and take it slowly, so as not to damage your barrel by firing too much, too quickly (i.e., let the barrel cool regularly throughout). Personally, I also clean the barrel a lot during an extended firing of several rounds, too.

Once you've done all of that and have fire formed cases, then you're ready to start on your list toward load development.

I agree with most everything you've posted here. One thing that stood out was in reference to something Glen Zediker mentioned in his "reloading for competition" manual when fire forming brass, and that was to NOT use a light load, but a fairly stout one. Slips my mind as to the reasoning, I'd have to go back and look, but I thought it had to do with the "memory" of the case. Ok to load hot to fireform even if you're going to run mild loads later on, but not the other way around.

Thoughts?

 

[BigGame]

Ok to load hot to fireform even if you're going to run mild loads later on, but not the other way around.

Thoughts?

I think I have heard similar and wouldn't doubt it, though I don't personally have good evidence to back up either method. In theory, I can see why you would want to have stout pressure to maximize the re-forming to your chamber, but again I have no evidence. Personally, I often use those rounds as on opportunity to get rid second-best powders and second-best bullets. I'm interested in precision, but I'm reloading for a hunting rifle.

 

[capdek]

I like where you're going and the fact that you're doing a lot of research first. I recommend keeping that up.

A few comments on the process you described for yourself:

1) You gauged the distance to lands in your rifle using a 140 grain Nosler BT (and presumable a modified case you bought off the shelf). Keep in mind that the distance you measured is particular to that bullet and is likely to change with other bullets. This is because the ogive shape will differ by bullet (so the distance to where the bullet contacts the lands will differ). Keep that measurement recorded for that specific bullet and perform the same measurement for each bullet you intend to use.

2) That modified case you bought off the shelf is handy, but keep in mind that it will likely not be the exact same length as your actual chamber, so your measurement will be off a bit. That's not a problem. Measure the modified case from base to shoulder using the proper headspace gauge. Then measure several of your fire formed cases in the same way, taking an average. You'll likely find that your fire formed cases are a tiny bit longer than the modified case (maybe 0.003, or something). Record this number. You'll want to add it to the measurement you took using the modified case to get the actual length from base (of your chamber) to the lands. That brings me to my last point.

3) Fire forming. Personally, I don't do much load development until I'm working with fire formed cases. Some may disagree, but I think you're only getting limited data using new brass, so I typically fire them all before getting serious about anything. If you're using good brass (you have Lapua, it's good), and it will chamber in your rifle fine the way it is (measure it), then I simply load up a lower-end load using cheaper bullets and fire form all of the new cases. Seat the bullet so the rounds comfortably fit your magazine (you can use the measurement you already have to ensure you're not into the lands). If it's a new rifle, you can use this time to break in your barrel. If it's a new scope, you can use this time to adjust your zero and run a tracking test to see how far your elevation truly changes when you dial it up 10 MOA. There are perhaps one or two other little things you might do, but I wouldn't get too carried away. Just fire form the brass and take it slowly, so as not to damage your barrel by firing too much, too quickly (i.e., let the barrel cool regularly throughout). Personally, I also clean the barrel a lot during an extended firing of several rounds, too.

Once you've done all of that and have fire formed cases, then you're ready to start on your list toward load development.

1) Yes, I've read that each bullet is different and you should determine an optimal OAL for each bullet you intend to load. I have purchased 50 count boxes of the 120g and 140g Nosler BTs, as well as 50 count boxes of the 130g, 150g and 168g Sierra MatchKings. The Noslers seem to work well in my rifle with factory ammo and everyone seems to swear by the Sierra MatchKings as being a top quality bullet. The plan is to take a max OAL measurement for each of these bullets and note them in my log book.

2) For my OAL measurements, I'm using the Hornady OAL gauge with a modified 7mm-08 case (also from Hornady) that is drilled and tapped to mount to the gauge. I also have the Hornady headspace comparator kit and used my Mitutoyo calipers to compare a sample of my fire-formed cases to the Hornady modified case and - coincidentally - my fire-formed brass was on average 0.003" longer than the Hornady modified case. So I know I will have to adjust each of my bullet specific OAL measurements by +0.003" to account for my rifle's specific headspace. There is one thing I should probably ask about. Currently, I don't have any fire-formed Lapua brass - only Nosler and Winchester. Since the Lapua metal is different (I've read it is generally thicker), is my measured headspace with the fire-formed Nosler brass likely to be different when compared to the fire-formed Lapua brass?

3) After thinking about it a bit, I'm quite convinced your recommendation here constitutes superb advice. Why would you try and work up a load with brass that has not been fire-formed to your chamber? It makes complete sense to me that you would want to develop your loads using fire-formed brass that's been minimally resized to perfectly fit your chamber so you can focus your attention instead on finding the best bullet, powder and powder charge combination for your rifle. Eliminating potential case related inaccuracies means less variables you need to account for when trying to identify an optimal load for your rifle.

I am so grateful to all of you for the wonderful help and advice you're providing as I move forward with this fun, interesting and potentially challenging reloading endeavor. I'm sure it will save me a lot of headaches and wasted time at the end of the day.

Oh and I was able to snag that book by Mic MacPherson on Ebay for $18.43 which is indeed an exceptional price. Thanks Dizzyj!

 

[BigGame]

Since the Lapua metal is different (I've read it is generally thicker), is my measured headspace with the fire-formed Nosler brass likely to be different when compared to the fire-formed Lapua brass?

I have found only the tiniest of differences between brass brands, that could be rounding error from averaging a sample of cases. But regardless, it doesn't matter, since you'll be fire forming your Lapua brass before beginning full load development efforts.

Enjoy!

 

[capdek]

I should have added above that I suggest this video series because I recall he speaks to the question of to-neck-turn or not-to-neck-turn. I can't recall exactly which video in the series covered the point.

In point of fact, the video you attached does explicitly discuss the topic of neck turning. In fact, Mr. Millard said if your neck thickness varies by less than 0.002", you don't need to turn your necks. Since my Lapua brass variance does not exceed 0.0015", it would seem I don't need to neck turn my brass. It was interesting to see him test a new piece of Lapua .260 brass on his Sinclair case neck gauge and it was pretty clear the variance was about 0.0015".
I think this finally puts the neck turning question to rest - especially if you're starting with new Lapua brass.

 

[Goosebrown]

Sort of. At the high precision end of reloading it isn't just the variance yiure interested in but the actual thickness after turning.

If you're looking at extreme accuracy you need to turn cases but only on the very high end

 

[thorborg]

I would sort in lieu of turning.

 

[DizzyJ]

I would sort in lieu of turning.

I've got a close friend who does this.

He's got several gold medals from winning 1,000 yd F-class matches around the world. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

 

[DizzyJ]

Funny thing. I just sorted 250 cases tonight by neck thickness runout.

2/3 of them were at or under .0015" TIR.

Thought that was pretty good.

 

[DizzyJ]

 

[best defense]

So I've just recently got into reloading for my 7mm-08 Winchester Model 70 and being a total perfectionist, I'm always looking for ways to improve. My latest question concerns neck turning.
I did some looking here on this subject and managed to find a thread from 2011 where deadshot2 said he neck turned all his once fired brass to get consistent neck thickness by simply taking off the high spots. He said he had great results keeping his groups consistently under 0.25" at 100 yards with similar results out to 300 yards from his factory gun.
This is definitely what I'm aiming for, so I'm pretty interested in giving neck turning a go. But I'm not sure what variation he was seeing in his unturned brass to begin with that drove him to start turning his necks.
To minimize case prep, I decided to purchase brand new Lapua brass since it seems to be the overwhelming favorite for quality and consistency. However, I have noticed a variation in neck thickness of up to 0.0015" on a fairly significant number of cases in the lot I purchased.
One of the things I read is that consistency in neck thickness is crucial for making sure the bullet leaves the case mouth evenly as it starts it's short journey to the rifling. That way, it enters the bore perfectly straight and even.
Many of the top shooters out there will say you should have less than a 0.001" variation in neck thickness and some even say less than 0.0005". Clearly, my new Lapua brass is exceeding these tolerances. But most of these folks are shooting custom precision rifles out to 1000 yards and require those very tight tolerances.
It's pretty clear deadshot2 decided it's worth it to neck turn his once fired brass, but I'm not sure what variation in neck thickness he's getting after neck turning. Perhaps I'm already within acceptable tolerance with a variance of 0.0015" in my Lapua brass for my factory rifle in the 100 to 300 yard range.
I'm curious what others think about this. Hopefully, deadshot2 will see this thread and chime in as well.
Thanks in advance for the feedback everyone.

**************************************************************************
Whether or not neck turning will improve accuracy in your rifle depends a lot on your rifle and the chamber that is cut into it. Rifles that are chambered for neck turned brass benifit more from neck turning than those that are not. Barrel whip on a slim barrel will be more pronounced than on a heavy barrel.
While it is true that making the neck of the brass the same size all the way around will help center the cartridge better in the chamber, some chambers are cut off center at the factory and there is nothing short of cutting off the back of the barrel and re-chambering it that will change that.
Most factory rifles have a chamber cut for brass that is not turned, so turning the brass for factory rifles will not likely make much difference in accuracy.
If you are going to turn the necks it is usually a good idea to shoot the brrass at least a couple of times before you turn it. As you shoot each round small amounts of brass will migrate from the body and shoulder up into the neck. That is the time to measure neck thickness, not when the brass is new. It would be equally important to make sure all the cartridges are the same length so that the bullets leave the case at the same time so they are all going the same speed when they hit the lands. Uniformity is a key to accuracy. Make everything exactly the same, or as close as possible. After that, making sure the bullets are loaded straight in the cases is one more variable you will want to check. Hornady and some other companies make gages to check for run out. If you did everything else right but the bullet is not loaded straight in the case you will have a problem with accuracy there as well. I hope that was not too much information all at once.
Feel free to PM me if something I said was not clear.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

So I've just recently got into reloading for my 7mm-08 Winchester Model 70 and being a total perfectionist, I'm always looking for ways to improve. My latest question concerns neck turning.
I did some looking here on this subject and managed to find a thread from 2011 where deadshot2 said he neck turned all his once fired brass to get consistent neck thickness by simply taking off the high spots. He said he had great results keeping his groups consistently under 0.25" at 100 yards with similar results out to 300 yards from his factory gun.
This is definitely what I'm aiming for, so I'm pretty interested in giving neck turning a go. But I'm not sure what variation he was seeing in his unturned brass to begin with that drove him to start turning his necks.
To minimize case prep, I decided to purchase brand new Lapua brass since it seems to be the overwhelming favorite for quality and consistency. However, I have noticed a variation in neck thickness of up to 0.0015" on a fairly significant number of cases in the lot I purchased.
One of the things I read is that consistency in neck thickness is crucial for making sure the bullet leaves the case mouth evenly as it starts it's short journey to the rifling. That way, it enters the bore perfectly straight and even.
Many of the top shooters out there will say you should have less than a 0.001" variation in neck thickness and some even say less than 0.0005". Clearly, my new Lapua brass is exceeding these tolerances. But most of these folks are shooting custom precision rifles out to 1000 yards and require those very tight tolerances.
It's pretty clear deadshot2 decided it's worth it to neck turn his once fired brass, but I'm not sure what variation in neck thickness he's getting after neck turning. Perhaps I'm already within acceptable tolerance with a variance of 0.0015" in my Lapua brass for my factory rifle in the 100 to 300 yard range.
I'm curious what others think about this. Hopefully, deadshot2 will see this thread and chime in as well.
Thanks in advance for the feedback everyone.

My question is, are you a good enough shooter to notice the very subtle difference in accuracy? Did you invest in a concentricity gauge, to verify that in fact the TIR of your loaded ammo falls below the acceptable limits of what you consider straight ammo? Are you going to be shooting benchrest competitions with your Winchester supergrade, or are you mainly going to use it for hunting and casual paper punching? What other precision tools did you buy, to ensure your handloads are fit precisely to your chamber? Theres a lot that goes into loading benchrest competition ammo. How new to handloading are you? Sometimes its easier to start with the basics, then when youve mastered the art of handloading, move into more of the precision side of things.