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So I've just recently got into reloading for my 7mm-08 Winchester Model 70 and being a total perfectionist, I'm always looking for ways to improve. My latest question concerns neck turning.
I did some looking here on this subject and managed to find a thread from 2011 where deadshot2 said he neck turned all his once fired brass to get consistent neck thickness by simply taking off the high spots. He said he had great results keeping his groups consistently under 0.25" at 100 yards with similar results out to 300 yards from his factory gun.
This is definitely what I'm aiming for, so I'm pretty interested in giving neck turning a go. But I'm not sure what variation he was seeing in his unturned brass to begin with that drove him to start turning his necks.
To minimize case prep, I decided to purchase brand new Lapua brass since it seems to be the overwhelming favorite for quality and consistency. However, I have noticed a variation in neck thickness of up to 0.0015" on a fairly significant number of cases in the lot I purchased.
One of the things I read is that consistency in neck thickness is crucial for making sure the bullet leaves the case mouth evenly as it starts it's short journey to the rifling. That way, it enters the bore perfectly straight and even.
Many of the top shooters out there will say you should have less than a 0.001" variation in neck thickness and some even say less than 0.0005". Clearly, my new Lapua brass is exceeding these tolerances. But most of these folks are shooting custom precision rifles out to 1000 yards and require those very tight tolerances.
It's pretty clear deadshot2 decided it's worth it to neck turn his once fired brass, but I'm not sure what variation in neck thickness he's getting after neck turning. Perhaps I'm already within acceptable tolerance with a variance of 0.0015" in my Lapua brass for my factory rifle in the 100 to 300 yard range.
I'm curious what others think about this. Hopefully, deadshot2 will see this thread and chime in as well.
Thanks in advance for the feedback everyone.
 
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I only neck turn Lapua brass when the rifle is a tight neck and it is required. Some of the best groups I've ever shot was in a no turn 6mmBR with Lapua brass. I don't mind turning brass, but with Lapua, I only do it if I have to.

If you turn the brass down and you have excessive clearance in the chamber, it can shorted the life of your brass if you have to size it down too much. Annealing might solve that problem though.
 
Thanks for the input. This is what I've read on other sites, but I'm still not sure if a 0.0015" variance in case neck thickness is typical for Lapua brass, and if getting a reduced variance with neck turning will make a difference in my Model 70 out to 300 yards and maybe 500 yards max.
I can tell you that my case neck diameter after firing is .316" and I've been experimenting sizing my loaded rounds to between 0.310" and 0.312". So it appears the neck diameter is expanding in my chamber on firing between 0.004" and 0.006". I'm not sure if this is excessive or not. Any thoughts?
 
You're about to open a big barrel of worms. :D
Yes, I've seem a lot of debate on other sites, but most of those sites are geared to precision long range shooting competition and I'm not really looking to play that game. I just want the very best accuracy I can get from my Model 70 out to 500 yards max and more typically 300 yards.
I do know my rifle is extremely accurate out of the box after initial sighting in with factory ammo, so there is plenty of potential for excellent accuracy with this gun - assuming I do my part.
 
Just getting into reloading - don't worry about it. With research you'll see there are so many other things to do first. If you want real accuracy, you need a custom barrel. The sooner you get one, the sooner your enjoyment factor goes up.
 
Just getting into reloading - don't worry about it. With research you'll see there are so many other things to do first. If you want real accuracy, you need a custom barrel. The sooner you get one, the sooner your enjoyment factor goes up.
I certainly have read that custom barrels will generally yield much better accuracy than factory barrels, and I'm sure that, in general, it is a true statement. However, I have seen some videos of precision shooters getting horrible accuracy out of their super expensive custom barrels in their super expensive precision rifles as they try and work up a load for the gun.
I'm not sure what the attached photo says on the subject, but this is what Velzey was able to achieve with 4 shots of factory ammo at 100 yards out of my new factory barrel when he was sighting in my new Model 70 SG after mounting my new Zeiss scope. To be quite honest with you, that level of accuracy is a good enough enjoyment factor for me. :)

470535-77cacb5eca332cb6f38c7d8f567f8ef1.jpg
 
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I should point out that Velzey did replace my M70 factory trigger with a Timney trigger worth about $140 before taking those shots.
 
I certainly have read that custom barrels will generally yield much better accuracy than factory barrels, and I'm sure that, in general, it is a true statement. However, I have seen some videos of precision shooters getting horrible accuracy out of their super expensive custom barrels in their super expensive precision rifles as they try and work up a load for the gun.
I'm not sure what the attached photo says on the subject, but this is what Velzey was able to achieve with 4 shots of factory ammo at 100 yards out of my new factory barrel when he was sighting in my new Model 70 SG after mounting my new Zeiss scope. To be quite honest with you, that level of accuracy is a good enough enjoyment factor for me. :)

View attachment 544761
If that's 4 shots into one hole, I'd just stock up on that ammo and call it good.
 
If that's 4 shots into one hole, I'd just stock up on that ammo and call it good.
It is and I did, but I enjoy both the science and experimentation sides of the reloading process and so I decided I would give it a try. Besides, this might have been one lot of extremely superb factory ammo that works extremely well in my rifle, but the next lot wouldn't come close to this level of performance. From what I've read, the key is to work up a load that will yield this level of accuracy in your rifle and then lock down your reloading process so that every round you produce never varies. That is of course until your barrel matures over time in such a way that accuracy starts to go down and you're forced to make changes.
 
It is and I did, but I enjoy both the science and experimentation sides of the reloading process and so I decided I would give it a try. Besides, this might have been one lot of extremely superb factory ammo that works extremely well in my rifle, but the next lot wouldn't come close to this level of performance. From what I've read, the key is to work up a load that will yield this level of accuracy in your rifle and then lock down your reloading process so that every round you produce never varies from this level of performance. That is of course until your barrel matures over time in such a way that accuracy starts to go down and you're forced to make changes.
Yeah, or the next lot of powder or next lot of bullets. :D
 
Yeah, or the next lot of powder or next lot of bullets. :D
Yes, good point. I suppose you might be able to hold perfect accuracy for some period of time, but components do vary and eventually both you and your rifle get older and - inevitably - more sloppy.
 
Are you measuring the case neck thickness with a ball micrometer? Just curious.
Sorry, got pulled away from the computer. Yes, my measurements were done with a ball micrometer taking roughly 8 measurements of the case neck thickness at different points around the circumference of the case neck. I also tried to keep the depth of measurement fairly consistent although that might have varied a bit.
 
I've read good reviews of the K&M neck turning tool and I can get the tool, the tool steel pilot, the expanding mandrel with die adapter, and the case holder with the handle for just over $120. I can also add the ergo grip for the tool, the pilot jack for precisely setting the cutting distance so the tool just barely cuts into the case shoulder, and a 0.001" dial indicator for the tool to check the consistency of my neck wall thickness for an additional $80, but these are basically bells and whistles to make the neck turning job easier. I don't really need them. I already have a good two speed power drill to speed up the turning process.
So, for a minimum investment of just over $120, I could give neck turning a go. If I know I've done everything I can to maximize my case quality/consistency, and I know my optimal bullet seating depth to stay 0.002" off my rifling (which I do), then I can focus on identifying the optimal bullet/weight and powder/charge parameters to achieve optimal accuracy.
That's my thinking anyway.
However, if getting less than a 0.0015" variation in neck wall thickness is not going to make a damn bit of difference for my rifle at the ranges I will be shooting it at, then I might as well save the $120 for other things. ;)
 
I've read good reviews of the K&M neck turning tool and I can get the tool, the tool steel pilot, the expanding mandrel with die adapter, and the case holder with the handle for just over $120. I can also add the ergo grip for the tool, the pilot jack for precisely setting the cutting distance so the tool just barely cuts into the case shoulder, and a 0.001" dial indicator for the tool to check the consistency of my neck wall thickness for an additional $80, but these are basically bells and whistles to make the neck turning job easier. I don't really need them. I already have a good two speed power drill to speed up the turning process.
So, for a minimum investment of just over $120, I could give neck turning a go. If I know I've done everything I can to maximize my case quality/consistency, and I know my optimal bullet seating depth to stay 0.002" off my rifling (which I do), then I can focus on identifying the optimal bullet/weight and powder/charge parameters to achieve optimal accuracy.
That's my thinking anyway.
However, if getting less than a 0.0015" variation in neck wall thickness is not going to make a damn bit of difference for my rifle at the ranges I will be shooting it at, then I might as well save the $120 for other things. ;)
You know.....

You can just buy in bulk, separate by your own standards, and sell the rest to someone who doesn't care to be as picky.

Might save you some $$.

Additionally, that thickness difference will often run the whole length of the case, and after multiple firings, will curve to a banana shape.
 
If you're not working on benchrest accuracy, there's no point in it. I turn my lapua brass but it just isn't necessary for the most part.

It's a lot of fun if you do, but then you need to anneal as well. One without the other is half a solution.
 
One four shot group, no matter how tight, is statistically meaningless. You have no where near enough data to determine if this is repeatable at any level of consistency. While it's encouraging, and most likely the barrel will be on the better end of the spectrum for accuracy from a factory barrel you are seriously premature in messing with neck turning to improve accuracy.

Any we have only been discussing the ammunition. There is a whole list of items related to the firearm that will make far bigger differences.

Neck turning is one of those things you do at the very end of the load tinkering process, and then only in a barrel of known good accuracy. Since you say you are new to reloading I'd say you, at least for now, are chasing "the Holy Grail".

Ballisticians and statisticians state you need a minimum of 7 rounds in a group to remove the uncertainty that variation will always bring to any system … and 10 rounds are better. Then you need a minimum of a dozen or so of these groups to begin to approach statistical significance. Once again, more is better. Show me a 50 round target (like they do on the small bore sites) and then tell me how accurate your gun really is.

Unless you have a true half-minute or better barrel (see paragraph above) neck turning will not help. It won't make ANY measurable difference in your group size. Powder charge, primer and bullet jump are far more impactful in regards to accuracy than things like neck concentricity and neck tension (which impacts bullet pull forces).

Do you know which powder performs best? Which primer? How far are you seating the bullets off the rifle's lands? And of course these all change every time you change a brand, lot number etc. This is where 95% of your accuracy lies.

I'm not trying to be a downer … it's great you want to tinker and improve, but you are starting on the wrong end of the spectrum! It's kind of like trying to finish very rough wood with 6000 grit wet/dry emory cloth. You will do a lot of rubbing and have nothing to show for it.

As far as tools go, I have no experience with the one you ask about, but have used (and own) both the Lyman version that attaches to their Universal Trimmer and the Sinclair hand units. The Lyman works well enough for long-range precision, Palma and F-class type shooting (even though hardly of these guys do it and they shoot to 1200 yards in completion) and the Sinclair will make even the most finicky bench-rest shooter happy. With care the Sinclair will be more consistent than most folks can measure with hand held measuring devices.

I hope this helps!
 

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